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Peugeot 307 2.0 HDi 2001 - Non start, codes P1448 & P1435 - Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow on May 10, 2013, 6:12 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2001
Engine Size and Code *: 2.0 ltr HDI
( Optional ) ECU Type: Bosch EDC 15
( Optional ) Scanner Used: ACR4 G2
( Optional) Fault Codes: Fault codes: P1448 (DPF)+P1435(Additive Fault)

Greetings,

I would be grateful for guidance on this problem.

Background: This vehicle was driving normally when a "warning light" appeared on the dashboard. Customer drove it home and next day it failed to start. It was taken to the local Peugeot dealer and they could find nothing wrong with it (after spending £400 of customers money ). Customer took it home after running out of funds for further diagnostics and sold it as seen to a local garage.

I was asked to make an initial appraisal and came up with the two fault codes. The DPF was removed and investigations found that a sniff of the good stuff would make it run. Cracking open an injector showed no fuel present. The garage thought it might be an ECU problem and it was sent off to BBA for testing and they thought it might be a problem so they provided another ECU. Still no start.

Today I had a longer look at the vehicle and found on cranking the following: Engine speed at 285RPM, Fuel Pressure at 300 bar. The two fault codes were still present. I found cranking voltage of about 9v on either side of the injector. Now, electrics is my weak point but I thought one wire should be earthed. AD tells me that the 2 wires on the injector go directly to the ECM.

So that is as far as I have got today and I would be grateful for suggestions on what further tests should be undertaken.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 10, 2013, 8:02 pm, in reply to "Peugeot 307 - Non Start"

Pete I hope you wasn't cranking the engine when injector pipes were cracked?

If you have 4 channel scope get a capture of ckp, cmp, injector current and FRP and post

I have loads of data from these so sure I can help

Also when cranking in live data there is a PID for cam/crank synchronisation what is that saying?

Also check EGR valve these are common for dropping to bits

That lot should keep you busy for a bit pal

Regards
Carl

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 10, 2013, 9:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Carl,

Many thanks for that. Answers are in order of your questions:

1, I didn't do the cranking whilst the injector was removed from the engine. I warned them about the dangers and let them risk their own lives.

2. Only got 2 channel scope and being a technophobe on these things have no idea how to upload and post. However, I did try and get an amps clamp on the injector but showed nothing at all. I may have to do this again because the battery was running low.

3. There is no PID (whatever that is) for crank/cam sync. The garage has already changed the cam sensor and checked valve timing. I am getting engine speed, so I guessed the crank sensor was doing its job.

4. I have heard about the EGR valve problem but when I mentioned that, they reckoned that wouldn't cause a non-start? Also, would it not have run crappily if there was a fault?

Many thanks matey

Pete

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Hi Pete

EGR valve will definatly cause a non start situation

As far as what they have checked I disregard that statement on every trade job I get through the car because just say they missed something whilst checking timing etc or even worse haven't actually checked you could have hours of wasted time.

Definatly get a capture of injector current on cranking do relative compression at same time for good measure.

Regards
Carl

p.s PM sent

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 11, 2013, 9:19 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Carl.

Having thought about this overnight (as you do), I have thought of these points:

I cannot see how a faulty EGR valve would stop an injector supplying fuel. I watched them remove an injector (from a safe distance) and on cranking, no fuel was present.

If there is a compression issue, surely the vehicle would not fire on easy start.

The scan tool was showing 300 bar on cranking, which I understand is what is expected.

So, if my assumptions are correct, the fault must lie in the injectors not producing fuel?

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 11, 2013, 9:45 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Carl Ford

Hi Pete

I did not relalise they had taken the injectors out and cranked the engine I thought you meant just cracked an injector pipe.

You need to really take a capture of injector current now to see if the injectors are being triggered

Regards
Carl

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Allan Davis <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1846' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 11, 2013, 10:07 am, in reply to "Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Allan Davis

Hi Pete
As Carl said you need to check the injectors with the amp clamp. One of the wires to the injectors should have system voltage permanently (Ign./on) and the other is a switched earth controlled by the ecu.
If the switching is not taking place i would scope the crank and cam sensors next as they provide the position reference information to the ecu to determine the point of injection.
I have come across too many different faults with these cars to supply a silver bullet I'm afraid, so it's down to methodical testing to get to the bottom of it.Good luck
Allan

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 11, 2013, 6:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

I have been asked to provide the chassis number which is: VF33ARHSB82258246.

Carl: I will have another attempt to scope the injector current most probably on Tuesday. As I said in the original post nothing was showing on cranking but this may be down to the battery inside the Amps Clamp which at some point during the test went for green to red led.

Allan: I did not get system voltage at the sample injector with ignition on. Only 1v was registered on both supply and earth. On cranking, I got cranking voltage of approx 9v on BOTH wires. If in view of this, I still need to scope the cam/crank, I will do this on my next visit.

Thanks to you both and Dave H.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 11, 2013, 7:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Mark Carter

Hi Pete,

Please look in live data and report the capacitor voltage.

If you get stuck give me a buzz.

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 11, 2013, 8:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings Mark,

Capacitor voltage?! What is one of them?

My live data has got loads of weird and wonder things...but I am pretty sure it hasn't got one of them. What does it do? Will check for it anyway early next week.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Kevin Apps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2589' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 11, 2013, 9:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Kevin Apps

Pete

"Capacitor voltage?! What is one of them? My live data has got loads of weird and wonder things...but I am pretty sure it hasn't got one of them."

Well it should have, along with a cam/crank synch PID.

No sych = No injector pulse

Seems you are going to gunfight,s with a penknife.

Kev.

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Steve Harrison <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1363' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 12, 2013, 9:48 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Stephen Harrison

Pete

Please don't take this the wrong way as I appreciate you are trying to help a customer but given the lack of understanding of the system I would advise passing this job on to someone who understands the system operation & potential dangers.

This will allow you the time to train on the system, perhaps by attending a course so you can then undertake diagnosis with more confidence.

Steve

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 12, 2013, 10:42 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Kev: Cam/crank sync. As I have already stated, I intend to scope these early next week and if that is different to Cam/crank sync PID,I would be interested to know why. I know the timing has been checked and I know the camshaft sensor is new so I need to verify what the crankshaft sensor is doing although I would have thought an RPM signal would be an indication that it is in fact working. If the two signals are present and the timing is correct, I would have thought they were synch'ed OK. Irrespective of that if the injectors were not getting voltage with ignition on, then surely cam/crank synch is not the first issue to be dealt with. I am very interested in Marks capacitor issue which is new to me.

Steve: I appreciate what you are saying. I have only recently taken an interest in diesels and using these experiences as a learning curve. Suffice to say I am at an age whereby training courses is not on my agenda. If I can fix diesels then fine, If I cant, I am happy to pass it on.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 12, 2013, 1:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"

The cam/crank PID is in live data on scan tool Pete and just literally says yes or no whilst cranking.

Also looking at capacitor voltage is a very good idea

A capacitor is a way of storing electrical energy in live data if your capicitor voltage is low you need to check all the injectors/injector circuit for outside interference.

I'm currently reading a good book called automotive electricity and electronics by James D halderman which has a really good description of how capacitors work

If you are interested when I get time later I will post his description of how/why capacitors work

Regards
Carl

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by aidan birley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2879' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 12, 2013, 1:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Aidan Birley

Pete

>>> Suffice to say I am at an age whereby training courses is not on my agenda.<<<

I am surprised a man of your experience in the trade would say that, you must have seen so much change over the years you would appreciate the need for continual learning.

I can however see agree that finding appropriate course, arranging, finding time off can be a hassle.

As an alternative can i recommend this book, packed with information and reasonably up to date.

>>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Diesel-Engine-Management-Robert-Bosch-GmbH/dp/0470026898 <<<<

cheers Aidan

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 13, 2013, 12:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Further information that I have received would indicate that the voltage at the injectors with ignition on should be approx 1v (which is what I have recorded) and the capacitor lies within the ECU (which has already been replaced).

Hope to return to the vehicle tomorrow.

Many thanks for your interest and help including all those who have sent texts and e.mails.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 14, 2013, 7:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

A very quick update. Went back to the vehicle and scoped it to death. The Camshaft Position Sensor signal was not as it should be. I found that the 3 wires carried 5v 0v 12v (cranking). Further checks established that the 12v wasn't coming from a short somewhere in the wiring but directly from the ECU. So back to the drawing board to establish why 12v was present.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 14, 2013, 9:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"

"""Further checks established that the 12v wasn't coming from a short somewhere in the wiring but directly from the ECU"""

Ey???

PID = Parameter ID (Identification) or in other words, lines of live data.

You are wading in out of your depths here Pete.

I have to agree with Aidan when he questions your stance on training. Surely you owe it to your customers to make sure that you are up to the task.

I read yesterday that John Corrigan has thrown in the towel. Although it is not pleasant to hear about the demise of a business, sometimes it is inevitable. I think it is a sign of the times & something that we are going to see a lot more of.

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 14, 2013, 10:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"

Dave,

Can you explain to me notwithstanding the training issue, why when following AD info that pin BG2 is showing 12v from the ECU when I would expect to see approx. 2v when cranking?

Also, posting those images are infantile and ignorant.

Pete

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Hi Pete

"Dave,

Can you explain to me notwithstanding the training issue, why when following AD info that pin BG2 is showing 12v from the ECU when I would expect to see approx. 2v when cranking?
Also, posting those images are infantile and ignorant.

Pete"

You are basing your expected values on Autodata's information & placing too much faith in it. Could it be that the PCM outputs 12v & the camshaft position sensor modifies the voltage in the form of a square wave output?

Yeah Ok I will give you that about the video clip. It does carry a serious & significant message though & who better to make the point than Clint?

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 15, 2013, 12:09 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Dave,

OK thanks for that. The waveform produced was well above the 2v I was expecting which is why I decided to see what the ECM was producing. I will have a closer look hopefully tomorrow.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 15, 2013, 8:06 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Lee Mackintosh

Is it not possible for you to post up your scope captures so we can at least see what you are trying to explain.

I always thought if it had a cmp sensor issue then these engines would never fire due to the sync not ok fault which i'd expect to see in live data.

thanks
lee

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 15, 2013, 8:49 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Lee Mackintosh

The info i have for the cmp sensor is

5v supply
gnd
0-12v peak on the signal wire.

Not to sure how reliable the inbuilt component test data on my Snap-on Verdict is though as most of it is autodata based.

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 15, 2013, 7:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

I think this one will soon be put to bed. Had a call this afternoon to say that on cranking it was noticed that the cam pulley was moving (end-float?) and catching the cam sensor. So this is has to be investigated in due course.

I knew the waveform looked odd but as I expected a 2v square waveform from AD I followed the wrong trail. Because of the "anomaly" with the waveform, the fault appears to be identified. OK, it was found by accident in a way but I expect a fix on this in the near future. After its up and running, I will need to re-programme the DPF out of the ECU but whether I will want to scope the Cam Sensor remains to be seen.

Thanks Lee for your posts this morning and of course all the others who contributed on and off this forum.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Andy Evans <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5518' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2013, 9:58 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Andrew Evans

"but whether I will want to scope the Cam Sensor remains to be seen"

I would have you would want/need to scope it to get a known good cam/crank for future reference

Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 18, 2013, 5:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Andy,

Thanks for that but I have got that covered. Found this a few days ago after research. Courtesy of Carl Ford/James Eardley.

http://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk12/msg/1355068202.html

Regards

Pete M

Update.

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 31, 2013, 7:35 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot 307 - Non Start"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Just got back from this vehicle. New Camshaft Position Sensor etc replaced. Still no go. Autocom showing good cam/crank synchro, (what a great piece of kit it is), and everything is there to start, fuel pressure, voltages etc as in my first post and the two fault codes still remain (DPF + Additive). The thought process now is that the injectors are seized bearing in mind the vehicle has been stood for about a year. So they have been removed and sent for testing and should be back on Monday. I expect the Pug to burst into life (or flames) early next week.

One thing which I did think was odd and not previously mentioned as I thought it was a scanner fault, is that when you try to activate the EGR valve the fuel pump is activated. This also happened with Autocom. Nonetheless, I expect to have a "Fixed" next week.

Regards

Pete M

Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow on June 3, 2013, 6:59 pm, in reply to "Update."
Edited by board administrator June 4, 2013, 2:11 pm

Greetings all,

This thing burst into life this afternoon with new injectors. Not sure that it required a new ECU, fortunately it wasn't me that made that decision. The other fault that was found was that the camshaft was 180 degrees out of kilter with the pulley due to a broken woodruff key. So although it had cam/crank sync, the camshaft itself was not in sync with the pulley (if you can understand that

)

Anyway, many thanks for all your interest and help. Got there in the end.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 4, 2013, 8:37 pm, in reply to "Fixed #"

Hi Pete.

I have to admire your openness in your posting.

>>>This thing burst into life this afternoon with new injectors. Not sure that it required a new ECU, fortunately it wasn't me that made that decision. The other fault that was found was that the camshaft was 180 degrees out of kilter with the pulley due to a broken woodruff key<<<

Regardless of who is responsible for the diagnostic decisions....

On the face if it, it didn't burst into life because of the new injectors, but because someone figured that the woodruff key was damaged.

It would be interesting to hear how this discovery was made.

I appreciate that my earlier post, where my "a mans got to know his limitations" comment was not received very favourably by some folk, but the outcome seems to reinforce my sentiment.

I am pleased that you found a result Pete, but I would question the journey & the thought processes.

Do you still maintain your point of view.... >>>Suffice to say I am at an age whereby training courses is not on my agenda<<<

My view is that some appropriate training could have paid dividends here.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 4, 2013, 9:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Lee Mackintosh

What confuses me is how can you have a ckp/cmp sync with a scan tool or even a scope if the woodruf key has broken.

Surely the cam sprocket would spin out of sync and be noticeable on a scope when compared to ckp sensor especially as I'm fairly sure if requested a known good ckp vs cmp example could have been posted up.

I am in no position to question anyones ability but I went through this situation on a Clio where a simple scope session comparing ckp against cmp sensor position easily shown a relationship issue caused by the usual woodruf key failure.

This would've been the 1st issue to address then move on. Quite sure the cam pulley has different size notches per cylinder tdc position.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 4, 2013, 9:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Dave Hill

This wouldn't be exposed as a fault Lee if the cam signal is taken from the cam pulley. If the cam shaft has rotated independently then the cam/crank sync & plausibility will appear to be correct.

You have to consider where the signals are picked up from.

I am sure you have seen many times where cam/crank timing checks out correctly, only to find some deviation when a further strip down is performed.

Renault 1.5 Dci are a common one that immediately spring to mind.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 4, 2013, 9:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings Dave,

I mentioned in one of my posts that there appeared to be some sort of "end float" on the camshaft which meant that the pulley was fouling the sensor. I am not a mechanic and do not know the why's and wherefore's on how this was remedied but it was then that it was found that the woodruff key had broken and the camshaft was found to be 180 degrees out of position in relation to the pulley. This was remedied and it was at this point when it still refused to fire that the injectors were removed and replaced. It was only then that the vehicle fired up.

I cannot disagree with what you say about training etc. However, I recognise my limitations with diesel technology and therefore I am up-front with all my customers when asked to look at a diesel vehicle. This is accepted by my customers and bookings are taken on these terms. I will reiterate that I am at an age where a training course is not on my agenda and I am happy at learning "on the job". This is supplemented by learning from old sages as your good self and many hours trawling the internet. I do however find it most interesting and rewarding in finding an answer when confronted with a problem irrespective of whether its a diesel or petrol engine.

Thanks again for your interest.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Fixed #

Hi Pete

Again I applaud your frank reply.

I don't fully understand your roll in this diagnosis, so I may have apportioned some criticism inappropriately.

I take your point that you are not a "mechanic" but you surely have a strong background in matters of Motor Vehicle Technology yes?

Without wanting to fuel any flames further....

You wouldn't consider offering someone health care advice without the appropriate foundation training (I hope)so why is considered Okay to offer an opinion on Common Rail Diesel fault diagnosis without any suitable experience or qualification?

This kind of thing is fine, if it is advice offered in casual conversation "down the pub" so to speak. My issue is purely with guys offering repair advice & passing it off as "credible" when in reality it merely ill informed opinion, based on little or no solid understanding.

Like I said earlier, I am not sure of your roll in this repair Pete & if I have misunderstood your roll, then I am happy to apologise.

Re: Fixed #

Thanks for that Dave. I was not leading the diagnosis on this problem, but was asked to supplement it. The garage in question although proficient in "mechanics" only has a basic EOBD scanner which is of no use on this vehicle as it is not EOBD compliant. My initial role was to scan for fault codes and see whats going on as far as the engine management system is concerned. They would deal with the mechanics of the problem.

I have 25yrs experience in motor vehicle technology and although I am confident with petrol engines I have only recently taken an interest in diesel engines. I do however have an enquiring mind which led to this initial post. Yes, a properly trained technician probably would have got to the answer quicker, but then again this vehicle had already spent some time with the main dealers and they had a problem with it. With the help of good people like yourself, and my limited knowledge, we got there in the end..... I have learnt something and I have a satisfied customer.

Now the easy bit comes on Saturday, delete the DPF software, remap the vehicle and reset the FAP counters...

Regards

Pete M

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 5, 2013, 11:02 am, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Lee Mackintosh

Wouldn't the timing belt spin the cam pulley though rather than the camshaft as i thought the pulley would be the least resistance as the camshaft has to force valves open/closed.

The Clio 1.5DCi we had in actually still run (although difficult to start) with the sheared cam pulley keyway.

As you say just different designs etc.

thanks
lee

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Alan Ganter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3444' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 5, 2013, 9:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Alan Ganter

The crank and cam sync would remain correct i agree.

But with a the camshaft pully 180 degrees out on the camshaft there must of been zero compression,

With 2 or 3 teeth out they will not run, and 180 degree must of smashed the rockers.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Graham Bullock <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2744' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 5, 2013, 11:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Graham Bullock

It is late at night and I have had a dwink but,
If the crank has to turn 720 degrees to turn the cam 360 degrees, then if the cam is out 180 deg the crank would have had to turn 360 deg. In other words the crank would be back where it was. So if the pulley and hence the cam sensor is reading correct but the cam itself is 180 deg out then all you would get is it injecting on a cylinder that is not on a compression stroke.

I think?
Graham

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 6, 2013, 12:03 am, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Alan,

This vehicle has not sustained any engine damage so I am told. It did go into limp mode due I suspect to the 2 DTC's present (DPF and Additive faults) but now the FAP has been refilled (with diesel) it apparently flies. I am told there is a warning light on the dash relating to the DPF but I hope to deal with that on my next visit on Saturday when I re-programme the DPF element out of the ECU.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Steve Harrison <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1363' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 6, 2013, 7:38 am, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Stephen Harrison

Think I have logged in to the Car mechanics Forum

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 6, 2013, 8:58 am, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Lee Mackintosh

If you were to do a relative compression test and remove no 1 glow plug to identify a cylinder, couldn't you then do a ckp vs cmp using a trigger on the ckp signal.

The reason i ask is i don't understand what difference it makes if the cam is set 180 degrees out as its only the same principle of replacing a timing belt but setting the timing opposite to where it should be if using pins.

Eg,

If the camshaft locking pin was meant to be at 12 o'clock but you set it at 6 o'clcok with the crank still at tdc it is still correct.

but if the camshaft pulley has spun 180 degrees leaving the camshaft correct wouldn't this then show up on a ckp vs cmp capture as the reluctor ring spacing/size would be reversed.

Hope you understand as i'm confused and i typed it out.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 6, 2013, 7:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi Lee.
As I see it the pulleys are in time, it is the camshaft that is out of time.
The injector sequencing is incorrect (cyl 1 injecting when cyl 4 should be injecting).
This would have it injecting at the top of the exhaust stroke in all 4 cylinders.
Hope this helps instead of adding to the confusion.
Fiachra.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 8, 2013, 9:29 am, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Bryan Smith

"Think I have logged in to the Car mechanics Forum

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 8, 2013, 5:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Finally got back to this vehicle today and programmed out the DPF and re-mapped the vehicle and it goes exceedingly well with no smoke etc.

Interesting comments have been made concerning the camshaft issue such as "no compression... engine damage....and injecting on the exhaust stroke etc." What I fail to understand is how did it fire on "Easy Start" as mentioned in my first post? Unless it was because of the injectors and the camshaft problem happened later in the workshop whilst trying to start the vehicle. Also I wonder how it got away without any engine damage.... from my limited mechanical knowledge of these engines, I would have expected the "fingers" to be damaged or dislodged at least.

Anyway. the car is fixed and now up for sale.
Thanks again for the help and interest.

Regards

Pete M

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