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Mercedes Vito 109 CDi 2.2 2006 - Non runner - Fixed #

Posted by Steve Shaw on December 11, 2015, 1:09 am

Year of Manufacture *: 2006
Engine Size and Code *: 2.2
( Optional ) ECU Type: bosch edc
( Optional ) Scanner Used: snapon solus, autel maxidas, dec superscan3
( Optional) Fault Codes: only in a/c

Sorry for the length of the post, but here goes!
scratching my head a bit here
non runner recovered to me
the story goes that it cut out whilst driving, re-started briefly but faltering & then cut out again & not started since.
merc dealers had it & were working along the lines of low compession on one cylinder after doing a virtual comp test on star. customer thinks otherwise & i get involved
firstly did a v. compression test on scope, 3 at 100%, 1 at 98%.
did a leakoff test, absolute minimal in pipes
checked hp pump output directly 1500bar
fuel rail pressure sensor reads the same as seal rail kit. 330bar at cranking, also checked seals on rail pressure reg, all good.
cam crank sync in & out on live data
on scope cam appears to be 6 peaks different to crank, but identical to a good saved pattern on pico waveform library.
did physical comp. test 3 cylinders at 24bar, 1 at 23bar,well within tolerances
removed gearbox to check dmf & camcover to check physical marks, all correct
injectors are not being triggered according to scope
fires sweetly on a sniff only
canbus high, low & van are all dead
had ecu checked - ok
checked, cleaned & load tested all earth points on body, all feeds to to ecu load tested & present.
removed all feeds to engine bay fuse box, cleaned & load tested, all good.
battery, connections & fuses all good
only dtc's are in a/c for blower fan relay, coolant pump interior temp sensor & blower fan all short or open cicuit.
disconnected ecu, abs, heater a/c panel no change to can signal.
only time can leds on pico canbox flash & make a strange pattern is when scanner is trying to connect to mostgateway which i believe is the stereo,but getting a bit frustrated now.
any advice gratefully received please

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Chris Angus <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat5111' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2015, 1:09 pm, in reply to "mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

As far as I know there are only three requirements needed to fire the injectors.
Good rpm signal and speed in live data
Good fuel pressure in live data
Correct cam/crank sync signal (which you say is showing in & out in live data, so maybe need to confirm that first).
Also while cranking, can you see if ecu is trying to control injector flow, any live data for fuel amount or delivery?

One last thing, are there any signs of ecu been opened (bite marks), seen many where tuners have opened them badly and caused damage to the board.

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2015, 5:28 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

Hi Chris

Thanks for the reply

ign. on the quantity control valve registers 40%,
cranking it goes down to zero
the cam/crank sync comes & goes as you're cranking on live data but on the scope it doesn't drift, it's a clean pattern, the cam just sits as i said at about 6 or 7 peaks before & over tdc identical to the one for a sprinter on the pico library, it doesn't fire when it says sync ok, i've load tested the wires to the ecu, but not stripped out the loom yet!
the ecu has been to ecutesting & declared good
fuel rail pressure 320 to 330bar

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by andy pethig <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3731' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2015, 8:53 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

"the cam/crank sync comes & goes as you're cranking on live data but on the scope it doesn't drift "

where are you connected with the scope ??? at the sensor or at the computer ?

if the sensors are pull up design then you could have a good trace at the sensor and a bad one at the computer .

also , if your whole net work is down how can you talk to the modules ??

any chance its got petrol in it ? I know you said the injectors are not firing etc ,

But from what you have told us this thing should run..

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by george ambelas <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3245' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2015, 9:38 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
George Ambelas

if it fires up and runs sweetly with a snif then the timing and compression is good and the problem must be fuelling. have scoped the injectors?

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 11, 2015, 11:38 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

How about posting a waveform Steve, I would like to see CAM vs CRANK vs INJECTOR CURRENT vs FUEL PRESSURE to start with.

Carl

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2015, 12:32 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

thanks guys

Andy: i've tried the crank waveform at the ecu & the cam at the sensor, the crank was a little more difficult to get to at the sensor & as the pattern was normal at the ecu i thought that was good enough for me. the can signals via the pico canbox on pins 6 & 14 are don't seem tobe anything more than noise.
no smell of petrol, drained the filter & left to settle, no separation & i can't see what's stopping it running.

George: it's definitely getting no fuel into the cylinders, with an amps clamp there was no draw we seemed to get about 40v from memory.

Carl: i'll try to get that done in the morning after my Mot's(need to earn a little bit of money to fund my unintentional charity work!) i assume you want to see the injector current via the fuse to catch all 4?

i'm sure it's something very elemental but it's really frustrating

Regards Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by andy pethig <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3731' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2015, 10:58 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Andrew Pethig

steve i would want to do the cam sensor and the crank both at the computer, the cam is going to be a hall effect, if its a pull up design you could see a clean trace at the sensor and a bad one at the computer, you know its some thing simple, as it always is ( once you know).

the scan tool says cam crank sync YES then NO on a continuous crank yes ?

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2015, 11:26 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

Hi Andy

that was my plan as that is what the ecu is seeing & yes that is exactly how it is displaying it on live data

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2015, 3:05 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

i can't attach files, only upload an image, is it just a screenshot? that won't show it all

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 12, 2015, 8:40 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

i've uploaded 6 files to mediafire i think
there should be:

1 for can high & low on pico canbus box
http://www.mediafire.com/download/2q208qwehkbteua/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_can+h+l.psdata

1 for virtual compression test
http://www.mediafire.com/download/aq7xfv9rp5uc826/VITO+V+COMPRESSION.pddata

4 for the cam, crank, frp & injector current because there are 4 fused feeds (2x10 amp 40 & 41, 2x15 amp 6 & 9, i'm not sure which one feeds them so i did all 4)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/qxcjmwyoobkuc0z/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_cr+ca+frp+inj+cur+f40.psdata

http://www.mediafire.com/download/o7o7hr9j89n9u5c/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_cr+ca+frp+inj+cur+f41.psdata

http://www.mediafire.com/download/v9zz0ayb3tkfd9i/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_cr+ca+frp+inj+cur+f6.psdata

http://www.mediafire.com/download/o7o7hr9j89n9u5c/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_cr+ca+frp+inj+cur+f9.psdata

hope i've done it right because that's completely new to me.

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 13, 2015, 2:02 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

Hi Steve,

Give me a call on Monday on 07889372793 or send me an email to cf_lincoln@yahoo.co.uk we need to alter some things on your scope and also move your amps clamp.

Regards
Carl

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by terry taylor <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5336' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 15, 2015, 6:37 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Terry Taylor

hi steve have the injectors tested,you need to make sure they are not the problem.terry taylor

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw on December 15, 2015, 7:23 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Edited by board administrator January 26, 2016, 2:25 pm

Carl, I've emailed you those files

thanks Terry, i've just uploaded some waveforms & the injectors seem look very much to me like they're pulling 10 amps each, i'm certain that when we first checked this there was no triggering voltage or current draw before we sent the ecu away for testing, still won't go but it looks a bit like 4 blocked injectors as we've checked pressure at the injector union 330 bar, so i'm erring towards sending them for testing now, never had all 4 blocked before, the diesel looks clean right colouring, no petrol vapour or separation, fuel filter looks recent.
the scope connections apart from the amps clamp are the same as before, just changed the settings a bit

Regards Steve

http://www.mediafire.com/download/99lztf1q86u8782/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_cr+ca+frp+inj+cur+cyl+2.psdata

http://www.mediafire.com/download/724c04d6280t29t/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_cr+ca+frp+inj+cur+cyl+1.psdata

http://www.mediafire.com/download/yrh5zp31iok38hu/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_cr+ca+frp+inj+cur+cyl+3.psdata

http://www.mediafire.com/download/oq9pfmh4l978y0v/Mercedes-Benz_Vito_2006_Diesel_cr+ca+frp+inj+cur+cyl+4.psdata

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by jarred toms <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3794' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 15, 2015, 11:50 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

Have you tried a seperate supply of known good fuel?
I wonder if the engine may have run on or coolant or excessive carbon in the cylinders this could cause multiple injector tip damage. Worth checking in the intake system for any evidence of this. It may be worth having a look at the glow plug tips or you could try removing an injector and connecting it to the rail so you can see the injector then carefully aim it towards a container and see what is actually happening when trying to start it.

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Tony Powell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3923' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 16, 2015, 12:08 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

Hi

its very rare for all injectors to fail together..... unless run on really dirty fuel....would suspect not being told to fire

Link: Specialist Seized injector and glow plug removal

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 16, 2015, 1:27 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

Hi Jarred
for whatever reason the fuel isn't passing through the injectors so a separate supply won't really help, the glowplugs don't feel healthy enough to try removing & i'm not a fan of venting crd injectors to atmosphere. i've had the injectors out to test compressions, think they're coming out again to be tested. (wish i could afford a function tester, 3 day turnaround at diesel shop for testing!)

Hi Tony
yes i've never personally had all the injectors fail at once either & i'm sure they weren't being commanded before i sent the ecu away, however on the patterns i've posted they look like they're pulling the best part of 10amps each so they must be getting a command, still doesn't start though!

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Tony Powell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3923' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 16, 2015, 9:03 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

Hi Steve

Where are you ?

I could test em while you wait

Tony

Specialist Seized injector and glow plug removal

Link: Specialist Seized injector and glow plug removal

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 16, 2015, 11:14 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

Hi Tony
thanks for the offer, i'm an awful long way from you in Boston lincs.
Regards Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by jarred toms <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3794' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 16, 2015, 1:10 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Jarred Toms

Are the injectors solenoid type? if so and you are still not 100% sure that the injectors are being controlled correctly you could crank the engine then disconnect all injectors and regulators so the system holds pressure, then while monitoring the pressure apply very quick pulses to an injector and see if the pressure drops, attach leak off pipes when you do this.

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 16, 2015, 4:48 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

Hi Jarred
the injectors are the regular bosch solenoid type, i've taken them out & they've gone away for a 3 day pre xmas test break now so it's a bit too late, cr injectors normally get something along the lines of 70v to lift the pintle, what would you use to pulse that? i've had a look at those buzzboxes but i think they were somewhere in the region of £1400

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Tony Powell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3923' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 16, 2015, 5:46 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

Sods law, passed you this morning on the way to Great Yarmouth.....

Link: Specialist Seized injector and glow plug removal

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by terryt aylor <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5336' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 19, 2015, 12:38 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Terry Taylor

hi steve we have a test bench and are testing injectors for other garages local to us.but if any one wants to send them to us or are within a certain radius we can collect and test same day,with a result which puts you in charge of the repair and the repair not in charge of you.thanks terry taylor.we are in hinckley leicestershire middle of the country 01455 632826

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 20, 2015, 11:07 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

Hi Terry, thanks for the offer
we're 80ish miles away on the east coast.
i asked the diesel shop to do a function test before putting them on the test bench.
the outcome is that all 4 injectors are seized, there's a brownish residue inside all the injectors & the very ends of the diesel pipes if you look hard enough, we cut the diesel filter open, but it's spotless. after contacting the owner & updating him, the fuel filter was changed after the breakdown, but before we saw it!
i asked him about his source of fuel, forecourt pump only, he does travel acoss to eastern europe regularly & uses jerry cans in lithuania (red ones i bet with a suspect lining). tank & fuel lines off & clean, ultrasonic the rail & hp pipes, new injectors & hp pump, see what that brings.
i'm considering buying a delphi ydt-35 function tester as this could've been ruled out early on with access to this type of tool & i know jarred suggested something along those lines, but how can i drum h&s into my guys & then fire a c.r. injector to atmosphere?
i'll let you know the outcome when i've fitted the replacement/clean parts

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by tony powell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3923' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 21, 2015, 10:21 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

Can recommend the YDT-35 very useful piece of kit (if you get enough work for it of course)

Has saved me quite a few waits for the service centre to do their bit and also proven a few recon units to be faulty !!

Link: Specialist Seized injector and glow plug removal

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Terry taylor <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5336' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 21, 2015, 11:11 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Terry Taylor

Hi Steve if you are thinking of buying a test bench try and get one with the injector pass or fail info.other wise you may have to do comparison tables,buy an injector test it then record the data and then use it as your data.not sure about the delphi one you will just have to do your home work.hope this helps terry taylor.

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by jarred toms <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3794' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 21, 2015, 11:18 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Jarred Toms

Yes I agree with the h and s of an injector test, although if you had time you could make something up that could allow it to be controlled in an enclosed device. In regards to making a power supply for aprox 50 volt to supply an injector, I don't really know about how to that, I was just thinking outside the box. You could try wiring 2 or 3 old batteries in series, it might be enough just to open the injector to see a pressure drop. Or I wonder if you had an old diesel ECU that you could utilise the device inside which provides the higher voltage? Probably not as straight forward to do this as we'd like.

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Steve Shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 22, 2015, 12:50 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Steve Shaw

Hi Chaps
we've got all the parts now, just finishing off putting the gearbox back in, got the tank & lines to clean, fit the new parts & crank it up hopefully, i'll post a fix when it's smoking!
Jarred, the ecu uses capacitors to store power to fire the injectors, i wish i'd listened more in physics about electronics but that was 35 years ago almost. an injector can fire up to 7 times in one combustion.

Steve

Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by Tony powell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3923' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 22, 2015, 11:25 am, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"

The Delphi unit has a pass and fail check for the solenoid / electrical tests and then visual test for spray pattern and back leakage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiniRmz_A5Y

youtube video

tony

Link: Specialist Seized injector and glow plug removal

Fixed #

Posted by Steve Shaw on December 23, 2015, 2:27 pm, in reply to "Re: mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Edited by board administrator December 30, 2015, 5:00 pm

Hi all
thanks for all the advice & tips
it's a runner
in addition to the other bits we decided to replace the in tank pump as it was snotted up badly & we couldn't get it clean,
merry xmas if you like that sort of thing & bah humbug if you don't.

thanks Steve

Ps. i'll try & scope the can later before it goes if i get time as i'm curious why it looked like that.

Re: FIXED mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by terry taylor <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5336' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 23, 2015, 5:54 pm, in reply to "FIXED mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Terry Taylor

hi steve glad its sorted nice before xmas not having to come into an old problem after the holiday period.happy xmas and new year everyone

Re: FIXED mercedes vito 109cdi non runner

Posted by jarred toms <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3794' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 23, 2015, 10:23 pm, in reply to "Re: FIXED mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Jarred Toms

Good job mate. Merry Xmas.

whatever was cost to customer ??

Posted by tony bickers <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 23, 2015, 11:33 pm, in reply to "Re: FIXED mercedes vito 109cdi non runner"
Anthony Bickers

Great result Steve, what was cost to customer in hard cash,was customer happy with bill,?? would it have been wiser to pass on to a specialist first off?? This sort of job looks like one I would have passed on straight away to Tony, he has the kit ?

I might be getting older, but I am certainly getting wiser to knowing what i can and cannot do, and the cannot is growing exponentially, even a glow plug change nowadays can turn into a head off nightmare, so what was cost of this job, closed forum so safe to answer

Re: whatever was cost to customer ??

Posted by Terry taylor <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5336' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 24, 2015, 8:13 pm, in reply to "whatever was cost to customer ??"
Terry Taylor

When this post first came up I thought thank goodness it's not my problem,what a "s--t but the rest of us will have learnt quite a lot from Stevens experience and if a Vito/sprinter comes in we will have a better idea of where to go with it,so the cost of repair will be big but the dealer had no idea and the customer got the vehicle back on the road,thanks to Steve well done pat on the back from the rest of us.terry taylor

Re: whatever was cost to customer ??

Posted by Steve shaw <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3627' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 26, 2015, 1:20 am, in reply to "whatever was cost to customer ??"
Steve Shaw

The customer has gone away 'til the new year & is uncontactable by me at least, the bill isn't yet finalised, but what would you expect would be a fair price tony?
The dealer said he needed a new engine which he had organised & paid for, but I told him to hold off on it. The engine was a bare unit £1500. So had I fitted it for probably £400 ish it still wouldn't start & we would be 2 grand deeper in the hole without any result, plus then he would still need the parts fitting that I've posted. I did tell him once we knew what the problem was he would be probably £1200+vat in parts which he ok'd.

As for passing the job over to a specialist, well if I did that all the time I wouldn't learn anything & I'm not afraid to invest in my own future how about you?

Seasons greetings everyone. Steve

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