Diesel Diagnostics

Post a Response

VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement - Fixed #

Posted by Liam Hourihan on October 17, 2010, 9:21 am

Year of Manufacture *: 2006
Engine Size and Code *: 2.0 BKP
( Optional ) Scanner Used: MODIS
( Optional) Fault Codes: P0341 (16725)

I did a timing belt on this car and afterwards the car wouldnt start and kept throwing up this fault, camshaft position sensor G40 not a plausable signal.I have done lots of these before with the correct locking tools and never had a problem before.I have rechecked the timing and its all locked in the right position. The cam sensor looks perfect and the attached wave form looks ok (I think).I have checked the wave form at the ecu and its the same.Does anybody know is this waveform is correct, or is there some new weird and wonderfull fault that i am unaware of.

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 17, 2010, 10:25 am, in reply to "vw passat -non start"
Fiachra Purcell

Have you checked the crankshaft position sensor. Generally is fault code for timing off but could be erratic signal from crank sensor.
Hope this helps. Fiachra

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 17, 2010, 10:45 am, in reply to "vw passat -non start"
Bryan Smith

Hi Liam,
I am not at work but I am assuming this is a PD?
Some of the later versions require a different tool for locking the crank with the mark in a slightly different place (about 2 teeth). I can't remember the code it throws up but I seem to remember it is cam/crank related.
I thought it may be worth a mention as I know of another garage that spent quite a few days over the same problem.
Regards, Bryan.

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Liam Hourihan on October 17, 2010, 12:45 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"
Message modified by board administrator October 18, 2010, 3:14 pm

On live data engine speed is being regestered so I assume that the crank sensor is sending a signal.Yes it is a PD engine and u are correct about the other timing tool,it would be two teeth out but that particular tool does not fit smoothly on the crank.I will take another look at that tommorow.

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Matt Booth <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3028' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 17, 2010, 7:14 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"
Matthew Booth

Scope the cam and crank signals together, then you can compare and see if they corralate.

But, as always if it worked fine before it can only be what you've done. I'm sure this engine still has the mark on the auxiliary belt crank pulley and engine cover so it's easy enough to pin up the top and check the bottom. I'd be quite confident you've got it out a bit. Mistakes happen.

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 18, 2010, 7:59 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"

Hi Matt

""Scope the cam and crank signals together, then you can compare and see if they corralate.""

Is there a way of confirming the correlation without some prior research or other data?

Hi Liam

If you unplug the crank sensor it will most likely start up after several seconds. It is likely that you do have a correlation issue & the system will not authorise a start condition.

without a crank signal the system can calculate the correct phase & will run, albeit in limp home mode.

Of course this is skirting around the issue. Your timing is incorrect & needs addressing.

HTH

Dave

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Matt Booth <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3028' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 18, 2010, 9:16 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"

If I'm following your thought correctly Dave yes you would need to look at the cam pulley to determine what duration/pattern you will see for cylinder 1. Which if I remember correctly has the longest duration of all the tabs of the back of the pulley with no split. Also, the supply voltage/ground. Although it's still going to be much quicker just to pin up the engine.

Matt

Re: vw passat -non start

Hi Matt

My point is, that unless you have a crank/cam capture that is verified as "known good", then you are not going to gain too much from a scope capture.

OK, it will prove that you have a valid signal from each sensor, (which I suppose should not be overlooked as valuable) but other than that there is little to be gained. A visual inspection of the pulley will allow you to make an interpretation of what you might expect, but it would not allow you to make an accurate assessment of the true cam crank relationship. For an accurate assessment, you would first have to take a capture from an identical system/variant that was fault free.

Sorry if I am stating the obvious, I just wanted to be clear.

Cheers

Dave

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 18, 2010, 11:59 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"
Bryan Smith

Cam timing is not rocket science and I have so far (touching wood Lol) never had an engine that I couldn't start after doing a cambelt. Although I am not an electrician I have more years than I want to mention as a mechanic (as in, mechanical). I have a very limited number of timing pins and normally rely on drill bits or Tipex. I even use a Renault pin on a Ford for the engines with a floating sprocket. As has been said this is almost certainly a timing issue. Forget scopes or any management issues and get the mechanical bit right. Liam has said that the later crank locking tool didn't seem to fit? I use the same tool for both engines because the timing marks mean nothing as long as it goes back in the same place as before you started (assuming it was running ok). If you get really confused just put the valves for number four 'on the rock' and pistons for 1 and 4 at TDC and it will run. Even if you do have the correct pins etc, on most engines Tipex will give you a good datum to confirm timing when turning over by hand after fitting the new belt. Dave, I fully agree with your comments.
Regards to all.
Bryan.

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Christy Doyle <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1037' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 19, 2010, 9:08 am, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"
Christy Doyle

Bryan,
" Liam has said that the later crank locking tool didn't seem to fit? I use the same tool for both engines because the timing marks mean nothing as long as it goes back in the same place as before you started (assuming it was running ok )"I stand to be corrected,but both crankshaft setting tools are marked on different sides of the locating pin that lines up with the hole on front housing and also as Liam said will not work.As regards setting up timing I agree it can be set up with 1 and 4 pistons on TDC with valves rocking on cyl.4.which is not going to be always 100%.The same as using tippex to mark the position of gears for refitting new belt,it will work but your timing may not be accurate.Christy.

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 19, 2010, 11:15 am, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"

Hi all, why don't we just use the correct tools for the job and keep tippex in the office !!

By using the wrong tooling all we are doing is adding more variables to the job. Therefore when it goes wrong we don't know where to start looking.

Regards mark

PS. Question; if the tools where exactly the same why would VW make two of them with different part numbers?

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by Christy Doyle <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1037' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 19, 2010, 12:10 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"
Christy Doyle

Hi,
Mark,I agree with you as regards using the proper tools for fitting timing belts,I have kits that I use on a regular basis,and kits I may have used a few times,I do not like to see tippex on gears when I remove covers to fit a belt as it seems to be a quick job and not enough attention paid to timing.I will not fit a timing belt kit if I dont have the kit for setting up timing,Regards,Christy.

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by aidan birley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2879' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 19, 2010, 1:57 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"
Aidan Birley

Hi

Even with timing tools, surly it is important to pin/lock it up before old belt or sprockets are touched just to confirm starting point.

Cheers Aidan

Re: vw passat -non start

Posted by C.Doyle <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1037' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 19, 2010, 2:21 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat -non start"
Christy Doyle

Hi,Aidan,
That would be the normal procedure I would take,I would check to make sure the manufactures marks were lining up before stripping.( ie.using pins where required )I fitted a belt kit to a Fiat Ritmo diesel years back,before stripping I discovered the injection pump was advanced a tooth,( No timing tools required as there were reference marks on block )set it up to correct marks and would not run properly,had to reset to original position to run properly,never found out why,hence always check original marks before stripping,if running ok.or not.Regards Christy

Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #

Posted by Peter Warman <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=Peter+Warman' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 19, 2010, 3:19 pm, in reply to "VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #"

Hi Liam

We do loads of timing belts and I must admit I have done two on VW's and the MIL has come on instantly they start, when I code read it is always a cam sensor fault logged, when I re-check something is always just slightly out even though you double check

The last one was a Ibiza PD ASZ, it was all locked up and tipex for extra measure, when I went to put the belt on it was a fraction out on the cam, but I could not get enough adjustment slackening the 3 bolt off (up against the edge of the slots). I just tweaked the belt on so it was all in its original position, but when I started it up the MIL came on

I had to strip again and take the cam pulley off and move round to get a full movement to set in the right place

My conclusion was that this had not been right from when it left the factory. The customer had had the car from new, few days later called to say it seems to have more power than before

So I would say that if the MIL is on after a belt change then its 99% a mechanical timing issue

Peter

Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 19, 2010, 4:53 pm, in reply to "Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #"
Bryan Smith

Hi all,
I was fully expecting flack over the Tipex issue but I am old enough to have fitted more timing belts than I care to remember and as mentioned, no problems so far. I am not saying I don't use pins but often find a drill bit or a bolt can be more accurate than the correct tools. As an example I know for sure that some of the setting bars for Zetecs give a large amount of movement in the cams but a long screwdriver of the correct diameter will lock them solid. When using Tipex it is quick and easy to see that everything lines up after turning over the engine by hand. Some engines still don't have any method of locking and rely soley on timing marks. What is wrong with highlighting these marks with Tipex? I actually find Tipex extremely accurate. I too have experienced vehicles that have come from the factory with incorrect timing and I am not blase about doing these jobs as I am fully aware of the cost implications to myself if I get it wrong. If Tipex is used before removing a belt it will be very obvious if it in a different position afterwards regardless of whether pins are used/required or not.
I am not trying to preach or convert anybody but I am quite comfortable with my current methods.
Regards to all.
Bryan.

Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #

Hi Bryan,
I to am old enough to remember the time that Tippex was commonly used and accepted as the way to do the job(Hell, I had two bottles myself, just in case the first one ran out), however we will hopefully both agree that this was a time when both the crank and the cam were keyed and the smallest amount that you could be "out" was by one whole tooth.

We both also know that we work in an era today where both the crank and the cams can be "floating" on the shaft and therefore it is important on these vehicles that we use the correct tools. And since we may not know what type of system we are dealing with until it is too late, it must make sense to always use the correct tooling.

On top of all that,One of the major control strategies within the modern engine management system is that of emission control and exact valve timing plays a big part in achieving this.

All the best.
Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 19, 2010, 11:00 pm, in reply to "Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #"
Bryan Smith

Hi Mark,
Yes, I agree fully that times have changed and even I have had to get the correct pins for one or two of these types of engines. The Renault ones are a good example where the job cannot be done without them. There are equally plenty still around that rely on visual timing. I am not advocating that anybody cuts corners on what is a critical job and I for one would prefer to take longer than the book time when doing timing belts. One advantage that I do have over lots of garages is that I will only take on new customers for the whole service/maintance package, will not compete on price and will very rarely take on diagnostic work on cars that I have not seen before. One result of this is that in the 11 years I have been here I have never had a car brought in that has been running badly due to incorrect valve timing. I am also being quite honest when I say that I have never had a vehicle not start, run badly or have emission problems after fitting a belt so I must be doing something right. We could not possibly discuss the pro's and con's of all the various timing belt jobs so I was being a bit general in my statements and hope I haven't misled anybody over the methods that I employ. But as I have said I am quite comfortable with them.
Liam,
Have you got an answer to this yet?
Regards to all,
Bryan.

PS: Going with squeasy jet to Gdansk this w/e so will be drinking plenty of Vodka and not giving any thought to the slightest thing car related

Fixed #

Posted by Liam Hourihan on October 19, 2010, 11:43 pm, in reply to "Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #"
Message modified by board administrator October 20, 2010, 2:18 pm

Apologies for not getting back yesterday and thanks for all yer replies.
Just to re-cap on a couple of things, this is my second time doing a belt on this particular car and had no problem with the first occasion and had used the same tools, and have used them on many other passats with no problems.I had rechecked the timing marks before I e mailed this fault and every thing seemed ok.
Before stripping the belt I locked the crankshaft with the correct tool (and as mentioned in an earlier reply the earlier tool may do the job but its not a correct fit and its not worth the chance because I will suffer the concquences).The cams were locked with 2 bolts .Lossened the cams and refitted the kit and for some reason didn't start.At the back of my mind it was telling me the timing was out but the locking tools were telling me everything was ok.Removed the 2 bolts in the cam-sprockets and installed the correct pins (very tight fit) that came with the locking kit but still no start.It was at this stage i scoped the cam and asked for yer help with the waveform.
After reading yer replies I went back to it yesterday with adjusting timing in mind ,so with the cam pins in position and camssprockets loosened I removed the crank locking tool and turned the crank a slight bit anti clockwise.Locked up everything turned it by hand first then started
it and away she went.Test drove it and it seems fine with no fault codes.
Now I know some of ye are saying that I hadn't it locked up properly at the start, but I had checked it a couple of times before emailing this problem .I also know that if it was running before I went at it and if it was locked up correctly it should start after wards but thats not how it played out.I have done numerous timing belts on the modern passat with no problem before.
I am happy its going

but at a loss for why it happened ,nothing was different with this one and as i said before this is my second belt on this particular car.
Again thanks for all yer replies.
Liam H

Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 20, 2010, 12:46 pm, in reply to "Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement #"

posted in the wrong spot

Re: Fixed #

Hi Liam

Well done with sorting it. What would have been useful, would have been a repeat capture of the cam/crank relationships after the fix. That way you would have a definitive answer to setle your nagging doubts. You would also a file for your library of "known good" waveforms.

Cheers

Dave

Re: VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement - Fixed #

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 12, 2010, 7:49 pm, in reply to "VW Passat 2.0 BKP 2006 - Non start after timing belt replacement - Fixed #"

Hi all,
Just thought I would upload this pic. I was sure that the crank locking tool is the same for all versions of the PD with the exception of the position of the marks. This pic is from a 2008 Golf where the mark on the crank sprocket can be seen clearly to line up with my Tipex mark to the right (a center punch will do the same thing if you don't like Tipex). The original mark (also with Tipex so as to highlight it for old blind people!) is also very obvious just to the left. You can also see that it is a perfect fit on the sprocket teeth. I have found that on both engines it needs to be slid into place from the front of the sprocket not placed on top of it, although I have found that on occasions it does seem to fall into place a lot easier. This may be why Liam found that one of them didn't fit properly. The camshaft on this engine was locked solidly with a 5.5mm drill bit. I was trying to get across that the "proper tools" are not always needed and we need to save our money for the ones that are. I know that each set of timing tools doesn't cost a lot, but a complete set runs into many hundreds.
Regards to all.
Bryan.
PS. I have also just noticed that the timing mark on the sprocket of the older type is on the top land of the tooth and the later type is on the bottom. This means that if the wrong mark is used it should be very obvious.

« Back to index

[ Diesel Diagnostics ]