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Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #

Posted by Carl Ford on September 17, 2010, 7:56 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2005
Engine Size and Code *: 2.2 dci

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Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Allan Davis <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1846' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 18, 2010, 7:34 am, in reply to "Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi Carl
The images you posted do not download so the post does not make sense.Could you expand the post including any fault codes found and tests you have carried out.
Allan

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 18, 2010, 2:29 pm, in reply to "Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi allan hopefully this time it will have worked, basically the vehicle has been left with me for a week with a serious lack of power and lots of excessive black smoke when driving it into the workshop suspected a problem with either afm or egr so dived straight in and took off the egr valve to find the pictures above so replaced egr and inlet manifold as this was coked up bad as well cleaned all intake system thoroughly and car is now fine fault codes when i cleared them all associated to egr, turbo boost and afm my question is that i seem to change quite a few egr valves but have never seen on this bad so want to try and make sure i prevent this from happening again but can`t seem to find any faults since the repair.
tia

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 18, 2010, 9:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi Carl, Your question is a good one as far as I am concerned, but can I ask you a few?

1) what does EGR stand for?
2) what does the system do?
3) What is it hoping to achieve?
4) How does it achieve it?
5) Under what conditions does it operate?
6) What would be the result of it malfunctioning?
7) Why?

There are more questions, but if you can answer the above you will have a good grasp on your own question. HTH

Regards mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Carl ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 19, 2010, 9:54 am, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Carl Ford

Thanks for your reply mark I am under the imression that the egr creates a better combustion process by recycling the exhaust gases this reducing the amount of nox so by answering your questions the answer to mine would be a stuck egr valve is the cause as this is what reduces the nox so the one I'm dealing must have been faulty for some time to cause such a build up and technically nearly shut off air intake
please correct me if I am seeing this wrong as am always willing to learn
thanks

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 19, 2010, 11:37 am, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Bryan Smith

Hi Carl
Just a slight correction on the above post.
The exhaust gases are not technically recycled. Exhaust gas has already been burnt, ie. no oxygen content and therefore inert. Modern engines are running so lean at light throttle loads that the combustion temp is raised and NOX is produced. Introducing an inert gas has the effect of enriching the mixture and therefore reducing the combustion temp and NOX emissions. My personal view on these egr failures is that Renault (and most other VA's) have increased the service intervals too far. I am struggling to get the message across to my customers that they should have a service at least every year even though they say "its only done 10,000 miles". I wouldn't mind betting that your vehicle has probably had about 3 oil changes in a zillion miles.
As a footnote to this thread I would like to ask others of their opinion on disabling the EGR on my Astra H 1.7 cdti (H17DTL I think). I am a bit concerned that the engine temp may increase at cruising speed and wondered if anybody has experienced any problems after doing this.
Regards, Bryan.

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Carl ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 19, 2010, 10:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Carl Ford

Thanks Bryan now it makes sence even more as the owner of this car has owned it for 3 years and never had a service it also is what I like to call a school run car so if the egr has been siezed for some time like I expect then this local running which will all be done at light throttle so the vehicle would have been running lean and obviously gradually the gases that where supposed to be used to prevent this lean mixture not actually being used but just coking up the valve. Oil and filter have been changed as part of the job and I am going to advise my customer to get this done every year or 10000 miles. Thanks again for your replies I now feel more confident that I have fixed the problem as well as the cause as this was my worry that it would come back next year with same fault.

Thanks again

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 20, 2010, 10:27 am, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Bryan Smith

Just for a bit of further info Carl. The damage has probably already been done and the chances are that it will come back again with more carbon on the egr. The last one I did which was under similar circumstances came back after about 6 months so I just cleaned the egr again, changed the oil and filter again and then cleared the codes. That vehicle had also been used for doing the school run (about a 5 minute walk!). The customer then decided to pass the problem on to someone else.
Regards, Bryan.

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 20, 2010, 4:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

After reading the above posts I have a question for both of you if poss;

Historically we do not throttle a diesel,we mealy control the speed of the engine by the amount of fuel injected, so if what you say is correct, then how did we overcome this "problem" you have highlighted before EGR came about?

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Bryan Sm <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 20, 2010, 5:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi Mark,
I was under the impression that older engines did not need egr because lean burning engines are the result of emission related regs. The first "target" was CO/HC's it then became CO2 and next on the list seems to be NOX along with particulants. Even at light throttle loads older vehicles, petrol and diesel chucked out loads of unburnt fuel and nobody cared about what gases where coming out. It sounds by your question however, that I may be wrong in that assumption?
Regards, Bryan.

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 20, 2010, 8:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi Bryan,
Lets stick to diesels and forget petrol's for the moment.

Diesels have historically always run on excess air, they are not throttled and therefore in theory the amount of air drawn in on the intake stoke is matched to the cylinder capacity.

The speed of the diesel engine is controlled by the amount of fuel fed into the cylinder, under idle conditions a very small amount of fuel is injected into the cylinder, with more being fed in as more speed/load is needed.

The excess air and the varying fuel quantity's result in a constantly changing AFR (Air Fuel Ratio)

It is this way of working that generates NOx in the diesel engine. It has always produced NOx under certain operating conditions but more so with new technologies. It is only in the last 10 years or so that NOx has become an issue for the VM's and this is because of legislation.

So we have to look at what NOx is and how it is produced.
Nitrogen oxides are produced during the combustion process, especially at high temperatures and where an excess of Oxygen is present (the atoms weld themselves together above a temperature threshold)

EGR was brought in to reduce NOx and the way it does it is by reducing the oxygen content of the fresh charge in the cylinder.

This is achieved by partly filling the cylinder with an inert gas(exhaust gases) and thus reducing the "excess" oxygen to more acceptable levels. This also helps to reduce the internal cylinder temperature.

As a rule it is used at idle and part load on a modern diesel engine. HTH

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 20, 2010, 9:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Bryan Smith

Thanks for the info Mark.
I have worked on diesels for over 30 years but this thread and another recent one in which you posted similar information (ref: faulty MAF) has made me think about something I took for granted. I have never questioned as to how air is regulated in a diesel engine until now. Apart from that the purpose of the egr seems to be what I was always led to believe and your post seems to confirm what I have said but in a more technical manner. What I would like to ask though, and your post doesn't seem to answer this, am I correct that the AFR being lean causes higher combustion temperatures? That is why I asked about disabling the egr on my own vehicle as I was told on a course some years ago that one of the causes of vehicles overheating under cruise conditions could be a blocked egr. This was however, quite a few years ago when things were a bit simpler, excluding me of course

Regards, Bryan.

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Carl ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 20, 2010, 10:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Carl Ford

Brilliant I very impressed and greatful for your answers i haven't really had to much to do with the older diesels as I am fairly new to the diagnostic world but by what I understand from this and a Saab post I have just read (think it is the one you was talking about Bryan) is that air intake has only just recently become monitored but still not controlled and older diesels would just have as much air as was available. One question though a couple of weeks back I has a Citroën relay van in with light black smoke and lack of power I initially thought this was a split intercooler pipe but as I removed air intake pipe notice a valve which Citroën call a dozer valve, I attached mity vac to this valve and it did not operate correctly and always stuck a quarter open, so does this mean on this vehicle there is actually some control of air flow into the cylinder. So will we possibly see more of this in years to come or is it's purpose something else.
Thanks again for your responses
ps new dozer valve fixed the Citroën

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 21, 2010, 6:26 am, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Mark Carter

Hi Carl,
The valve you refer to (it looks like a throttle butterfly)is there to aid the flow of EGR into the engine (don't forget that there is no depression in a diesel inlet manifold) and not to throttle the engine as in a petrol engine.HTH

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Keith Geach on September 21, 2010, 8:05 am, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Message modified by board administrator September 21, 2010, 3:41 pm

Mark
No depression are you sure? (picking holes)

Carl
What do you get if you restrict the inlet on a diesel.

Some old diesel's did use an intake butterfly.

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 21, 2010, 8:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi Keith

Wasn't there a Landrover diesel variant back in the 1980's that utilised a mechanical throttle plate, that was used for the sole purpose of creating a degree of vacuum, for brake survo operation.

Mark

Interesting & informative as usual.

It is worth mentioning also that the throttle plate on some manufacturer systems, is operated at engine shut down, in order to starve or strangle intake & in doing so, the engine will come to a halt more smoothly. With a reduced amount of air to inhale & compress, the pistons rise on the compression stroke with less resistance. This makes for a much smoother engine shut down.

Keith

I think we could debate the point about "no depression", but it is clear that a system without a throttle plate mechanism, will have negligable vacuum (depression) in the inlet manifold. My understsanding is that the throttle flap will purge the EGR tract more effectively than the older style system, where intake flow alone is responsible for drawing in the inert EGR.

Good thread!

Cheers

Dave

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Keith Geach on September 22, 2010, 7:57 am, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Message modified by board administrator September 22, 2010, 2:33 pm

Dave
There has to be a vacuum (below atom) or why would the air go in (there would be equal pressure each side). The intake flap restricts fresh air and so increases the draw on exhaust gas. Yes landrover and many others used intake flaps they were also used when we had vacuum governors. As normal there is a lot of these systems / controls have been around for years and just used differently and more precisely.
Egr can also be used to warm the cooling system as well as the air temp in the cylinders.

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 22, 2010, 8:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi Keith

Strictly speaking there is no vacuum in the inlet manifold on any diesel or petrol engine come to that. To have a vacuum would mean that the manifold would be "empty of matter" & clearly this is not possible. In reality what we have is a degree of vacuum or a relative depression.

Moving on from this, if we look at a basic system, where we have no throttle or intake restriction device, the question is, where will the greatest negative pressure difference exist?

In the intake port close the inlet valve?
In the larger void of the inlet manifold?
Either side of the air filter?
Under the bonnet?

Obviously the intensity of the depression reduces as we move further away from the source of intake (the descending piston on an intake stroke)

In a similar way that a high pressure pump on a common rail system can not generate any pressure, unless there is some restriction or resistance to the flow of fuel. If you uncrack an injector pipe, the pressure is lost. Turning this on it's head & applying the concept to intake pressure & flow, without some form of resistance to air flow, the level of vacuum or depression is reduced significantly.

This is all granny & egg stuff to you Keith I am sure, but some might be a bit confused about what is being debated here. I agree with you when you questioned Marks "No depression" comment. Even an air filter will cause some degree of depression.

Cheers for now.

Dave

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Carl ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 22, 2010, 11:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Carl Ford

Thread seems to be getting interesting from what I gather from everything I have read and seen in my short time so far is that on a diesel engine the vacuum in the inlet manifold must be very minor (will be having a look tommorow at an actual figure) due to the fact the only thing causing it is the piston going down on a intake stroke and obviously on tick over the excess air in the manifold is not always required so to answer your question Keith if you restrict air intake you could reduce the amount of air going in so maybe there would not be excess air to worry about so no egr required but obviously it is not as simple as that or the vm would have it in place? Just read some interesting info on egr about using an egr system actually creates particulate matter which is mainly carbon so due to regulation is why we now have to have particulate filters which I also seem to see alot of blockages so it all seems a bit one step forward then one back
thanks

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Keith Geach on September 23, 2010, 7:56 am, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Message modified by board administrator September 23, 2010, 2:52 pm

Carl
Diesels always run lean, they are not wasteful like petrol. Therefore if you restrict the air what can happen?
I think what you have been reading is not strictly true because we can have egr or exhaust treatment or both, the automotive side is still behind the commercial side.
Egr can increase emissions because we are sending exhaust gas which contains soot back into the intake and if not working correctly causes running problems, but I would not say they have caused the need for exhaust system treatment systems.

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 23, 2010, 11:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi Dave and Keith,
I take on board all your comments and you are both right on various points, however I was trying to give a general view of how diesels work and stay away from vehicle specific details such as the shut down flap on the VW PD family of engines and so on.

You could say that they have a positive pressure in the manifold because of the turbo, but that opens up a whole new tin of worms.

EGR like so many other systems have been with us for many years in lots of formats (internal EGR generated by valve overlap as an example) and is still missunderstood by many people.

Once Carl has a good understanding of the basic system he can start to look at the differences between VM's.

Thats all for now, I'm off to bed.

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 24, 2010, 10:30 am, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "

Hi Keith & Mark

My replies are not intended to contradict anything that has been put forward, but merely to add some clarity or perhaps look at things from a different angle.

As always my input is open to correction & if anyone sees anything that is blatantly wrong or even debateable, then I am happy to be corrected or have my opinions realigned

. My apologies if anyone feels that I was nitpicking.

Internal EGR is an interesting subject Mark. As well as the more commonly known reasons, manufacturers are using variable valve timing systems (possibly more so on petrol variants) to adjust valve overlap for internal EGR regulation I believe. This is yet another technology that lurks behind the scenes which many would not be aware of.

Like all things automotive, the subjects can become very deep. I am sorry if I have diverted the thread too far off track.

Cheers all

Dave

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Keith Geach on September 24, 2010, 1:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Message modified by board administrator September 24, 2010, 1:54 pm

Yes keep up the good work, I will leave the cylinder filling under pressure as opposed to naturally aspirated etc.

Dave as usual no problems

Mark hopefully we will meet at Bosch sometime, may be I may do one of your courses if I want to stray from diesels, I still have lots to learn.

Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 24, 2010, 8:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault espace egr fault what is the possible cause "
Bryan Smith

Hi all,
I know this has been a long thread but I have been giving some thought to my original comments on why older vehicles did not need egr. Obviously legislation and enviromental issues have had a large impact but I still think older diesels did run a lot richer than modern variants. As I said, I had never really thought about the AFR on a diesel and took many things for granted, but I don't think the fact that they run on excess air means they all have the same, or similar AFR. I spent many years working on air cooled stationary diesel engines and it is my opinion that altering the volume of fuel delivered does affect AFR, i.e. loads of black smoke when more is injected than the engine can burn. I think many other issues have to be taken into account like the engines ability to "breath" (I think the term is volumetric efficiency?), the ability of the injector to fully atomise the fuel, the compression ratio, the shape of the combustion chamber etc, etc. If modern engines are returning better MPG than the older ones, then surely it must follow that they are burning less fuel and therefore more likely to raise the combustion temp and produce more NOx? Surely getting rid of one gas (smoke in this case) must result in another i.e. less CO = more CO2 = less O2??? Like most I am happy to be corrected but after sooooooo many years it's going to be difficult

.
Regards to all, Bryan.

Re: Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 24, 2010, 9:42 pm, in reply to "Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #"

Hi Bryan

I think it is fair to say that the method of fuel management on older systems is very basic, when compared to what we see on modern common rail systems. Mechanical pumps that rely on spring tension & vacuum control, with no closed loop control. Compare that with "per cylinder" fuel trimming & precise fuel metering.

I don't think that it has been said that "they all have the same air fuel ratio" Bryan? The fact that there is a plentiful supply of air, doesn’t mean that the AFR is constant. You could still inject excessive amounts of fuel into a cylinder that has as much air as it wants.

I suppose we should consider the original question in this thread. Why are these EGR's & intakes clogging so badly?

Is it all down to a faulty EGR valve?
could it be influneced by any or all of the following....

Excessive oil consumption?
Long life service intervals?
Poor fuel quality?
Short journeys?
or anything else that would cause the system to generate excessive levels of soot.

The throttle plate discussion is interesting for sure, but what is causing the sticky residue to form in the valve? (as shown in the original post)

Is it just a deficiency seen in earlier systems, that has been partially overcome with the introduction of throttled intakes? Are we really seing an improvement in more modern arangements?

Your thought gents...

Cheers

Dave

Re: Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 25, 2010, 2:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #"
Bryan Smith

Hi Dave,
Going back to the original question posed by Carl, I agree with your comments and that was part of my first post on this thread. Mark's response to my post was

"Historically we do not throttle a diesel,we mealy control the speed of the engine by the amount of fuel injected, so if what you say is correct, then how did we overcome this "problem" you have highlighted before EGR came about? "

This got me thinking in a totally different light about diesel AFR's. I may have taken Mark's comments too literally but I think he was trying to say that there is very little control over a diesel AFR. He is of course quite correct in what he has said, and although I have learnt something about the subject I still think my original description on the purpose of EGR was fairly accurate. Funny thing is that since the start of this thread I have had two Astra's come back (different egines but same part No') with EGR Position Sensor faults. Both of these cars have had EGR's replaced about 18 months ago and both have had regular servicing and used under normal conditions. Neither of these however, looked anything like the ones in Carl's pictures.
Regards, Bryan.

Re: Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #

Posted by Shaun Dale <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2719' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 26, 2010, 5:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #"

Just my few thoughts on the matter...
On the question of why older diesel engines did not need EGR, they probably did but no-one gave a damn way back then.
EGR is just a way of trying to reduce NOX emissions to keep up with modern requirements. My visualisation of this is that having been burnt it is an inert gas and is used as a moderator to damp down the combustion process and keep the combustion temperature below the threshold where nasty NOX compounds are created. Is this caused by reducing the AFR or oxygen surplus, depends on your viewpoint really.
What I have certainly noticed is that many modern diesels have a particularly acrid or acidic smell to their exhaust whereas older diesels don't seem to do this. Is this a result of higher injection pressures and smaller droplet sizes perhaps? I might have been inclined to say that combustion pressures are increased due to higher boost pressures but this is not the case at idle when I have noticed the smell.
Many, if not most modern turbo-diesels seem to have a great deal of oil in the inlet tract downstream of the turbo, this oil must get involved in the combustion process and increase the amount of particulates in the exhaust gases, which of course get recirculated. obviously turbocharger oil seals are not as effective as they could be.
Following this thread with interest.
Shaun.

Re: Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 27, 2010, 8:20 am, in reply to "Re: Renault Espace 2.2 DCi 2005 - EGR fault, what is the possible cause #"
Mark Carter

WOW, I only went out to buy some milk.

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

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