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Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - Non start, replacement engines fitted #

Posted by Graeme Simm on June 23, 2010, 10:23 am

Year of Manufacture *: 2006/2004
Engine Size and Code *: z17dtl/z19dth
( Optional ) ECU Type: edc15c7/ edc16c9
( Optional) Fault Codes: none

H have two vehicles listed above, had the vectra for some time and have spent more hours than i care to remember on it, just received the astra from the dealer, both vehicles have the same or indeed similar faults
both don't run, they have had second hand engines fitted (not by us), they have no fault codes, vectra has had an ecu tried as an option, astra has new ecu fitted by dealer and four injectors fitted and re coded by dealer, vectra has had injectors tested several times and re coded with tech 2
both have sufficient compression(astra lacks a little but would still expect to start)both have sufficient start fuel pressure,both high pressure pumps create max pressure, good cam and crank signals and no fault codes
both vehicles crank over(so don't suspect any immo issues and no codes or lights relating to immo)
only clue is injectors fire once then lose injector signal, leave vehicle five ten minutes again fire once and no signal
have diagnostic blindness have been looking too long, must be missing something obvious and i have two so somebody else must have one.
silver bullet please
Graeme

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Peter Lomas <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5466' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 23, 2010, 2:31 pm, in reply to "vauxhall astra/vectra"
Peter Lomas

Hi Graeme
Try scoping cam/ crank sensors together, ( thats if allready not tested )
Regards Peter

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 23, 2010, 10:38 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

Questions, are the vehicles only non starts after their engine changes?
What was wrong with the old engines?
Were the replacement engines new or secondhand?
What was changed? ECU?
What is live data telling you?
Has a global code read been carried out?

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by graeme simm <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5327' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 24, 2010, 10:45 am, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

thanks for the response, here goes
cam and crank have been scoped and are fine, timing has also been checked an both
both vehicles are non start after the engine changes, the vectra supposedly started and drove this has never been confirmed and garages it has been first suggest it has never started
astra engine over heated, dont know origional failure of vectra engine, both engines are second hand units
the astra has a new ecu fitted and recoded by the dealer along with four reconditioned injectors(fitted and i assume coded by the dealer)
the vectra has had an ecu fitted by us and coded by us , this since has been removed and it is back on it original, the injectors have been removed and tested by ourselves and re coded to the vehicle using tech 2 and no faults can be found
live data is telling me we have sufficient fuel pressure to start, we have crank signal(rpm reading), nothing untoward and no fault codes
a global test has been carried out on the vectra not on the astra and unconnected central locking faults and power failure faults nothing of any interest, have used several scan tools on these vehicles and none return any different info
will try and carry out a global test on the astra today
again the only significant info i have is the injectors fire once then stop, this was scoped at the ecu

graeme

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Peter Lomas <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5466' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 24, 2010, 3:34 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Peter Lomas

Hi Graeme
Just a thought ( guess) Blocked exhaust ??
Regards Peter

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

funny you should say that when i wrote the last post i tried to remember if we removed the exhaust from the vectra, cant remember we have done that much
will try removing the exhaust from the astra, dont know why it would stop injector pulse though
if you told me wearing clown shoes would fix it i would give it a go
off the top of my head i can not remember if the vectra has dpf not that this matters just that if it had seen a discrepancy between pre and post pressures it may stop injector pulse, but would expect a fault to flag
never mind will give it a go, i honestly thought that some one else must have seen this changing engines with no go, unless there sitting back waiting for the fix
thanks for the input
graeme

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 24, 2010, 6:42 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Mark Carter

Hi, will both engines run with a tiny bit of outside assistance?
I know it not recommended but sometimes it just confirms that your only problem is a fuel one and stops you going mad.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Colin Jelf <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1635' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 24, 2010, 6:57 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Colin Jelf

hi graeme
i did have a fault with a fuelling relay on astra 1.7 earlier this year-have not checked to see if yours has this relay though.also does this have the ecu on fuel pump which has bad soldered joints?
hth colin

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by graeme simm <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5327' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 25, 2010, 1:16 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

they will briefly run with a slight sniff
it is the y17dt engine that has the pump control ecu
so do believe it is fuel related,

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 25, 2010, 5:05 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Mark Carter

OK, so what does the ECU need to "see" for it to fire the injectors?
What bit of info is missing?
HTH

Regards Mark.

What is the ECU part no?

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 26, 2010, 6:38 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

Hi Mark

There has been some recent debate about the pre requisite for suitable fuel pressure development, before the PCM will commence with injection.

I must admit that I "took it as read" that most systems will not initiate injection until a minimum pressure threshold has been crossed.

Can you confirm if this is the case for all or most systems?

Cheers

Dave

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Tony Sefton <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5581' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 26, 2010, 6:57 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Tony Sefton

Is there a Possibilty that there are different engine Variations that might cause non start. ??

i,e It used to be a common problem with cavaliers, Toyota Yaris, Rovers etc for someone to do an engine swap only to find out that they wouldn't start and Eventually to find out that the Flywheel is Different or Crank or Cam Reluctor ring was different etc.

Might be way off the mark but thought it worth a mention, although you would think that it would cause it to set a Fault code for cam /crank Synchronisation.

P.S Have you still got that old Wardrobe. ??

H.T.H. Tony.

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 26, 2010, 6:58 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Lee Mackintosh

If its the Y17DTL in the past i've had problems with these caused by the fuel pump ecu but can have them running to part prove its this at fault by using a power probe on the spill valve whilst someone is cranking it over.

Can't remember if i added a positive or a negative feed to the spill valve but it will start although run very rough and smoke like mad. This to me proves fuel pump (mechanically) is capable of supply fuel and the high pressure side is working.

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Piotr Sokolowski <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1848' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 27, 2010, 11:01 am, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

'OK, so what does the ECU need to "see" for it to fire the injectors?
What bit of info is missing? '

Do you think about rail pressure. I didn't realise it is a common rail.What a ... .

Link: www.pandpauto.eu

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 27, 2010, 4:20 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Mark Carter

Hi, I think(along with Tony)that you have got to go back to basics, what vehicles did the engines come out of? what year were they? which wiring looms were used?

You state that the ECU platforms are EDC 15 and EDC 16(one of each) but the info I have read so far states that they should be EDC16 on both.

We are talking about a Astra H and a Vectra C?
My Vauxhall info states that the Z17DTL should have a CP3 pump with single point pressure control and the Z19DTH should have the same pump but this system uses a two point pressure control strategy.
Are the vehicles fitted with these systems or do they have a CP1H pump?

What are the ECU part no's and Vehicle VIN no's

Regards Mark.

PS. Hi Dave, as far as I am aware all common rail systems need to "see" a rail pressure(the actual pressure needed will vary from system to system) before the ECU will fire the injectors, but like everybody else on here I am always willing to learn.

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by graeme simm <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5327' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 28, 2010, 6:38 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

thanks for the input
i am travelling the mr sefton route the same direction as your thinking as well mark, what have they changed relating to the origional engine at the moment just concentrating on the astra
one of the difficultys as you have spotted mark is the management system it is edc15c7 not as you would expect edc16 this is because it is the last of the astra g vans,engine is def a z17dtl van is a 56 plate as for fuel pumps and fuel pressure the fuel pump is cp3 and it produces 330 bar on cranking dropping back to 240 on prolonged cranking,will produce 1300 bar tested at the back of pump.should be more than enough to trigger the injectors on an older system like this.
cam and crank are in sync, seem to have miss placed the vauxhall disc so am struggling for good diagram and pin out, if any one has a good diagram they could e mail me much appreciated
surely an engine is an engine once the peripherals have been swapped and coded. it may take a couple of days to check who swapped what and when at the moment they cannot remember whether they fitted the engine or someone else
hoping they fitted an edc16 engine requiring an edc15c7 crank or camshaft or something simple like that.i remember the old days thing were simple(boring though)
on a personal note tony, that old wardrobe is standing in his own workshop these days, doing all right(he did spend time on the vectra when he was still here as baffled as i am)never know he may reply to the post, havnt spoken to him about astra yet
may be a couple of days till i have some news will keep you posted
again thanks for the input
graeme

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 28, 2010, 7:30 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

What is the ECU no, and the Vin no on the Astra?

Regards mark

PS. whats your e-mail?

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Kevin Apps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2589' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2010, 12:33 am, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

Mark
Have you tried clicking on the envelope next to graeme.s name in the header.
Kev.

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by graeme simm <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5327' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2010, 11:53 am, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

chassis: W0L0TGF706G152083
ECU: 0 281 010 859,BOSCH 1039S08643,GM

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2010, 6:36 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Mark Carter

Hi Kev, if I had brains I would be dangerous !!!

Thanks Mark.

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Steve Harrison <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1363' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2010, 9:20 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
Stephen Harrison

Mark

I can definitely confirm that

Steve

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by John Wardrobe <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5342' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 29, 2010, 9:35 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"
John Wardrobe

Hello Graeme, where is the crank sensor located on the astra? if at flywheel end next to starter i think that a edc16 type engine, for the edc15 think its further towards timing belt end.
cheers.

Hello Tony, OLD?? just because my hair is turning silver dont mean im old, i just like to where it that way

cheers
john

Re: vauxhall astra/vectra

Posted by Mark <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 30, 2010, 7:52 pm, in reply to "Re: vauxhall astra/vectra"

Steve,
And I thought that you were a mate.

regards Mark

PS. True though

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE

Posted by graeme simm <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5327' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 5, 2010, 10:58 am, in reply to "Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - Non start, replacement engines fitted #"

after spending significantly more time than will be billed decisions have been made.
we are talking astra here, went over everything that has been done, cant get engine timing exact 1/4 of a tooth out on the cam but convinced this isnt the fault, removed all pulleys to check key ways all ok scoped cam and crank at ecu all ok, found fault with throttle flap shut off jammed shut(got excited)realised not the main fault
getting to the point no faults found, used an old diagnostic trick of routing around in the spare parts bin that now resides in the rear of the van courtesy of the dealer, made a discovery, stay with me here it gets tricky, two sets of injectors, one set new 0445110174, one old 0445110118, injectors currently in van 0445110118 which are the correct injectors, turns out the second hand engine had a different injector number which do not cross referance which are newer and i suspect run on a different engine management system(edc16) so in context the crank signal is edc 16 the ecu is edc15 the injectors are edc15 so i am guessing the newer crank signal is not compatible with the older operating system (different euro regs), unable to correctly fire injectors( edc16 has up to five operations per cycle)
so in conclusion I believe it just requires a new crankshaft
turns out this saga has been going on for 9 mounths and they have disposed of the old engine, which had over heated and possibly has a good
crank
will probably sit in my yard forever till they decide what to do

Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 5, 2010, 11:20 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE"

Hi Graeme,

Sounds like you are getting there,

Astra G Z17DTL uses a EDC 15C-7 ECU and the Injectors are 0445 110 118 Exchange part no 0986 435 082

Astra H Z17DTL uses a EDC 16C-9 ECU and the Injectors are 0445 110 174 Exchange part no 0986 435 105

Regards mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE

Posted by graeme simm <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5327' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 5, 2010, 1:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE"

good info mark thanks
the question is will any one know if the crank signal from edc 15 and edc16 differ significantly to stop the vehicle from starting
firing order is the same cam and crank signal is good, and the injectors use the same electronic solenoids to fire(non piezo) so the signal too the injector must be incorrect due to the wrong crank signal, I have to say the scoped signal I did get was not great
thanks again
graeme
p.s. what did you use to get the ecu info

Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE

Posted by Mark <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 9, 2010, 10:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE"
Mark Carter

Any luck yet?

Regards mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE

Posted by graeme simm <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5327' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 13, 2010, 11:37 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Astra Z17 DTL 2006 - UPDATE"

customer taking away to fit engine that matches ecu older version of the one he has
have had two other people on to me with the same issue with last of line astra g vans, both now looking for older engines
graeme

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