The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Mike Dean on December 7, 2024, 11:16 pm
Edited by board administrator December 15, 2024, 7:29 am

I recently came across a set of barrels with the WILDFOWL engraving and a serial number that does fall into the range of the shotguns shipped to Rochester Ordnance during WWII. This set of barrels has the flaming bomb ordnance mark but not the crossed cannons or the RLB initials that I have usually seen on these particular pieces. I have had two of the "Rochester Ordnance" Smiths with the WILDFOWL markings but they also had the crossed cannons and the initials RLB for the inspector with others have had the USA-F markings as well as armory markings on the side locks. I am curious to know if any other markings our members may know of that were seen on these WWII barrels? Does anyone have a Rochester Ordnance Smith with only the flaming bomb or just the cannons or just the initials?

Re: WILDFOWL - Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Mike Dean on December 8, 2024, 7:59 am, in reply to "WILDFOWL - Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Here are a couple of other examples that show what I have normally seen on the WILDFOWL shotguns.

WILDFOWL - Rochester Ordnance

Posted by Denver Dillard on December 10, 2024, 1:22 pm, in reply to "WILDFOWL - Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"
Edited by board administrator December 11, 2024, 7:25 am

Several variations:
Ser.# 199729/Wild Fowl/Bomb, Ord. branch logo, RLB/ barrels NOT marked US or USA/ V.A. 2116 on right lock plate/Reg. Frame.

Ser.#201754/Bomb only/ US on each barrel/ 2 Beads/ FW Frame.

Ser.# 201762/ same as 201754 except also USA on each barrel/ Beavertail forend presumably added later.

WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Mike Dean on December 10, 2024, 11:31 pm, in reply to "02"

Denver thanks for your reply. It does appear that there are several different variations of how these Ordnance shotguns were marked. Just from a limited observation it appears the earlier shipments or lower serial numbers have a more consistent marking with the initials, ordnance crest, and the flaming bomb. I can only imagine as time went on the markings became less formal with a greater sense of urgency to get the shotguns out to servicemen for training.

If you would care to send me any photos you can link them here or send them to my email at dmdean4@yahoo.com.

Thank you for adding to the conversation with your information.

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on December 11, 2024, 9:28 pm, in reply to "WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

A WILD FOWL is not necessarily a military shotgun. Both WILD FOWL and LONG RANGE were available to the public. Except for markings, they were the same.

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Mike Dean on December 14, 2024, 11:40 am, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Thanks Jim, that is a good reminder regarding the fact that all of the shotguns marked WILD FOWL were not necessarily military shotguns. I believe that the research indicated that only 8 were marked WILD FOWL according to the ledgers with the caveat that there are probably more out there as anecdotal evidence suggests.

I recently purchased a Rochester Ordnance Smith (ROS) Field Grade with the flaming bomb ordnance mark on the barrel flats that fall into the ser# range of the ROS guns. It appears to be a Featherweight from the shape and size of the barrel lug (Have only seen pictures waiting for it to arrive) but I will be sending you a request for a letter soon!

I am posting a photo of the barrel flats with the flaming bomb mark in hope of collecting other images of other ROS marked shotguns for comparison. If anyone has photos of their military marked barrel flats that they are willing to post here or send to my personal email at dmdean4@yahoo.com I would appreciate it.

Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Drew Hause on December 14, 2024, 2:53 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"
Edited by board administrator December 15, 2024, 7:33 am

Thanks for starting this thread Mike. Before Picture Trail departed for the great internet dump (somewhere

) we had a nice collection of images with a narrative.
This is what I saved from the Intro page

The Military Marks

Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Drew Hause on December 14, 2024, 2:57 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"
Edited by board administrator December 15, 2024, 7:33 am

There was some confusion regarding the USA-F mark which I believed to be a Hunter Arms inspector's mark rather than a military mark

Likely a bogus U.S. mark

Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Drew Hause on December 14, 2024, 3:02 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"
Edited by board administrator December 15, 2024, 7:34 am

And there were Smith guns thought to be procured for State Armories or Arsenals

ILL

The flats

Hunter Special

Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Drew Hause on December 14, 2024, 3:05 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"
Edited by board administrator December 15, 2024, 7:34 am

More WILDFOWL

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Ken Descovich on December 14, 2024, 3:31 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Since this post started out as a "Wildfowl -Rochester Ordinance - Other barrel markings" I am only aware of Wildfowl barrel markings on regular framed guns and not on any feather weight framed guns.

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Mike Dean on December 14, 2024, 8:08 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Drew, thank you for taking the time to add the photos, information, and commentary. I have seen the FJA initials on some Remington barrel but that is the first time I have seen them on the LCS!
Do you know if the picture of the Hunter Special with VA2474 stamped on the receiver was a Rochester Ordnance Smith ?

Ken, you have hit on a good point! I tend to let my keyboard outrun my thinking

I think the subject line I wrote originally did not convey what I was actually looking for. What I am looking to gather is information on other Ordnance markings and variations our members may know of on these WWII barrels or if anyone has a Rochester Ordnance Smith with only the flaming bomb, just the cannons, just the initials or something else?

So Far it looks like the following for barrel markings as of today.

Field Grade WILD FOWL marked Shotguns
1. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
2. FJA - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
3. Ordnance Flaming Bomb
4. (Possible Armory Markings) - ILL or VA followed by numbers

Field Grade Featherweight
1A. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons (See photo FWE 198805)
2B. Ordnance Flaming Bomb

Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Drew Hause on December 15, 2024, 7:32 am, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Happy to help Mike. I changed the thread title to reflect the information you are seeking.
That's the only image I have of the Hunter Special.

Re: Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Mike Dean on December 15, 2024, 8:33 am, in reply to "Rochester Ordnance Marks"

Drew, thanks for amending the thread! As my wife tells me daily.."Words mean something".

This is a Fulton Rochester Ordnance Smith with the following Markings:

RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons

Re: Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Mike Dean on December 17, 2024, 8:11 am, in reply to "Re: Rochester Ordnance Marks"

Here is a FW Rochester Ordnance Smith (ROS) with the markings:

FJA - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons

So what we have so far is:

Field Grade WILD FOWL marked Shotguns

1. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
2. FJA - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
3. Ordnance Flaming Bomb
4. (Possible Armory Markings) - ILL or VA followed by numbers

Field Grade Featherweight

1A. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons (See photo Ser # FWE 198805)
2B. Ordnance Flaming Bomb
3B. FJA - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons (See photo Ser# FW 199979)

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Roger Domer on December 22, 2024, 1:07 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Mike. My Rochester Ordnance S#198451 is not a WILDFOWL. It is marked with similar marks as yours. On the right side there is a 'VA2444'etched.

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Mike Dean on December 23, 2024, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Roger, thank you for adding this information! I have sent a couple of inquiries regarding the VA and ILL #### markings to a couple of folks who do archival research. Maybe we will find out the backstory on those markings!!

So with your new info we have a small view of the inspector initials and ordnance marks that have been seen on the Rochester Ordnance Smiths (ROS).

Field Grade WILD FOWL marked Shotguns

1. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
2. FJA - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
3. Ordnance Flaming Bomb
4. (Possible Armory Markings) - ILL or VA followed by numbers

Field Grade

1#. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
2#. (Possible Armory Markings) - ILL or VA followed by numbers

Field Grade Featherweight

1A. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons (See photo Ser # FWE 198805)
2B. Ordnance Flaming Bomb
3B. FJA - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons (See photo Ser# FW 199979)

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Roger Domer on December 23, 2024, 2:21 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Mike .... The VA 2474/2444 codes on our ordnance shotguns could be shipping codes. The military has a system to cover everything, so I'm looking at the Department of Defense Activity Address Codes (DODAAC) going back to WW2. This can be GOOGLED. I am doing a lot of net surfing and see if I run across the codes that apply.

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Roger Domer on December 27, 2024, 4:42 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

The answer to your question ....

VA is the code for the Virginia Arms Company
Ill is the code for the Illinois Arms Company

GOOGLE - Gun Manufacturer's Codes, Markings and Trademarks

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Ken Descovich on December 28, 2024, 9:14 am, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

RLB - Lt Col Roy L. Bowin
FJA - Lt Col Frank J. Atwood

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Roger Domer on December 28, 2024, 3:06 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Thanks. I will shortly discuss the VA2474, VA 2444 codes, & similar ones on a new post. Perhaps other owners of the Rochester Ordnance Smiths will offer the markings on their shotguns. Any information that is offered will expand our knowledge.

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Mike Dean on January 11, 2025, 4:38 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Roger, thank you for taking the time to research this! I have been traveling and just getting back home to read this thread. I have also attempted to find those codes on some WWII documents but have not had any luck.

I think you may have indeed cracked the code on these markings!!!

The markings on my WILDFOWL is VA2119 stamped on the right side lower receiver.

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Mike Dean on January 11, 2025, 4:50 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

Roger,

My next question on this excellent research is if the VA markings on the ROS guns are for the Virginia Arms Company; how did they come into possession of these particular guns that were sold to the military and when?
I am assuming after the war?
Do you know from your research the history of the Virginia Arms Company?

Thanks again for expanding our knowledge!!

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Roger Domer on January 13, 2025, 2:13 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

It’s fun doing research on Smiths. As was mentioned on an earlier post, there was discussion about these arsenal Smiths in 2020. Since then there is more information on the net. If we keep plugging away - researching, and GOOGLING for books that have been printed, or some that are about to be printed, we could eventually see original Hunter Arms Company records.

Re: Rochester Ordnance Marks

Posted by Mike Dean on April 26, 2025, 5:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Rochester Ordnance Marks"

I thought I would update the Rochester Ordnance marks with a new addition. An LCS Featherweight with Ser# 199986. The marking here are the Inspector marks of FJA, Flaming Bomb, Ordnance Crossed Cannons with the added stamp marks of ILL 6120 on the receiver and the USA-F on both of the barrels.

jolly poem

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Mike Dean on April 26, 2025, 5:35 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

With the addition of todays finding as 4-26-25.

The following for barrel markings as of today.

Field Grade WILD FOWL marked Shotguns
1. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
2. FJA - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons
3. Ordnance Flaming Bomb
4. (Possible Armory Markings) - ILL or VA followed by numbers

Field Grade Featherweight
1A. RLB - Ordnance Flaming Bomb - Ordnance Crossed Cannons (See photo FWE 198805)
2B. Ordnance Flaming Bomb
3C. FJA - Ordnance Flaming Bomb -Ordanance Crossed Cannons and possible Armory markings of ILL 6120 with the USA-F markings on both of the barrels. (See Photos)

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Roger Domer on April 28, 2025, 11:29 am, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

https://www.earmi.it/armi/database/Gun%20Make%20Codes.htm

ILL - Illinois Arms Company
VA - Virginia Arms Company

See the above link to verify the two Company abbreviations. The numbers that follow the Company abbreviations are 'Lot Numbers'.

Hope this helps.
RLD

Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings

Posted by Roger Domer on April 28, 2025, 11:19 pm, in reply to "Re: WILDFOWL -Rochester Ordnance - Other barrel markings"

https://www.firearmsguide.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7232:gun-data-codes-list-of-all-gun-manufacturers-gun-codes&catid=8&Itemid=167

This link shows 'VA'. See my previous note.

RLD

« Back to index

777

[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]