Dick, Tom, Yeah, just friendly banter. The very first post on this thread was " has anyone seen an R frame 20." To which Dick replied "if one had surfaced you would have heard, the holy grail". I'm sure it was tounge and cheek and I am not trying to crucify him for it! The thread did some how meander into 20 ga live bird guns. Those following that portion, don't forget the late Andy Anderson's 27 in 20 ga grade 3 live bird gun. Tom- I have read all of your DGJ articles, and I wish I had to chance to see 1/10 of what you have. I still really want to see the "owl A2" mentioned in a Lcsca journal. Personally I really dig vintage doubles with rabbits rather than birds. Love to find a Smith like that. I've found some others. ( For what it's worth the DGJ index V2 shows a 16 ga 0 grade with a rabbit. While I wouldnt turn it down, I really don't think it os factory work.) While I still wouldn't call that my Grail, others may call it insignificant all together. Dick- what would I pay for an 80% R frame 20? I am cheap and poor. I consider an 80% gun a real standout, in 20ga I would expect that to be about $1500( many are priced higher we know). I have bought some real close to that for +/- 1000. In any case I just don't think I would add more than 1-2 extras bids to a basic gun just because of R frame. Now if it was a 32 in, straight grip I'm adding 100s for that maybe I'd add even more as the R frame could make that an even nicer combo. Of course we then get into even more particulars, the pre-13 frames are much more appealing with a few more contours and a bit more elegance, so a true early gun in that configuration might change my mind a bit.