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Jaguar S Type 2.7D V6 2005 - Poor cold starting, misfire symptom #

Posted by Peter Mashiter on January 27, 2016, 4:41 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2005
Engine Size and Code *: 2.7 V6 Diesel
( Optional ) Scanner Used: Verus
( Optional) Fault Codes: None

Poor cold starting followed by misfire / erratic idle symptoms with slight exhaust emission???

Can be really bad to start sometimes & can have to crank for 30 seconds before engine running!!!
It seems to give a starter kick back symptom & kerr-ching noise from flywheel area as you crank, that tells me possible timing issue!!!

As vehicle warms up symptoms iron out & vehicle runs smoothly & restarts with no problems.

Tested all glow plugs out checked O.K!
Assuming glow circuit on time is correct at 10 seconds on time after start up! (does vary according to temperature)

No fault codes in system!!

Timing belt & injection pump belt have been replace not to long ago by another party!!!

Suspect a timing issue or crank sensor issue!!

Any pointers???

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by keith brown <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1429' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 27, 2016, 6:30 pm, in reply to "Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"
Keith Brown

peter ,the pump belt is not timed on these so no bother there ,however to pin the crank i believe you have to remove the starter,access is very tight & this is where shorcuts/tipex gets used,i think best advice is to rechheck camtiming before diving in with any other diagnosis

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 28, 2016, 4:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

Assuming cam timing is correct, where would one go next???

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Chris Angus <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat5111' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 28, 2016, 4:14 pm, in reply to "Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

You had a look at any live data while cranking?
Cranking speed, fuel pressure??

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 28, 2016, 7:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

Getting good power, ground & waveform out of crank sensor.
Cannot seem to see the cam sensor or connector to it!!

These S types are a pig to work on.

Have to get back to you on high fuel pressure readings.

Seem to get good primary delivery & flow to the secondary high pressure pump.

Had very similar symptoms on a Fiat that turned out to be bent con rods.
Hope this is not the case or it's on the bonfire with it.

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 29, 2016, 12:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

3500 PSi or 241 BAR cranking pressure.....

Considering Autodata suggest common rail pressure at 1600 BAR (23200 PSi), my readings seem very low.

When vehicle is at cold (lumpy) idle, pressure is 4500 PSi or 310 BAR

Raise throttle to 4000 rpm or above, pressure is at 14000 PSi or 965 BAR

IT SEEMS LOW

Any comments please.......

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by tony powell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3923' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 29, 2016, 2:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

Peter

yes seems low to me...would expect higher

is it smoking - un-burnt fuel ?

tony

Link: specialist seized injector and glow plug removal services

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Glyn Morgan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2543' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 29, 2016, 3:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"
Glyn Morgan

Contaminated - mixed - incorrect fuel ?

Have you ran on an independent supply ?

Regards

Glyn

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Chris Angus <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat5111' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 29, 2016, 5:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

Pressures look ok to me, you're not going to see 1600 bar at full power on the road.

Can you do a compression test?

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 29, 2016, 5:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

Yes!

It does smoke under load during driving (during cold phase) but seems to perform O.K!

Smokes a little more on left exhaust than the right (could be a red herring)

Fuel has been drained & good source of diesel fuel filled.

Tony says "NOT OK" Chris says "OK" on the pressure front

I hear the song from Dead or Alive playing "Chris & Tony spin me right round like a record right round"

Going to check primary pressure again just to be sure! Should get 3 BAR plus

Drove a Mercedes Benz E class 2008 with PID readings recorded during a drive & rail pressure recorded 23500 PSi WOT & 21,000 PSi cruising.

I know this is a different vehicle entirely but this Jag seems way off the mark to me.

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Tony powell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3923' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 29, 2016, 8:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

Hi Peter

Some vehicles restrict the engine when stationary and everything is approx anyway main thing will be if its ok when driving it around, so many variables to deal with

i was basing it on one i did last year which was much nearer autodata's figures at around 1570 peak

Link: Seized Injector and Glow plug Specialist Removal Services

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 30, 2016, 6:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

0.5 Bar primary pump pressure with reasonable volume. Looks to be within specs???

If you disable the primary tank pump the secondary does manage to draw fuel through the lines!!!!!!!

Looking at injection pump inlet flow control valve.
Had these stick on many a vehicle but not under these symptoms!!!!

Looked at the fault code table on this monster, & my conclustion is if there was any pressure deviation or injection fault, there would be a fault code registered.

This is looking more mechanical than electrical.
This is looking & getting expensive.

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Terry taylor <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5336' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 30, 2016, 7:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"
Terry Taylor

Hi peter what about injectors,if your injectors are opening at different pressures you will get ruff idle which will smooth out when warm.unless they are kaput.terry taylor

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Ian Slattery <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1196' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 30, 2016, 11:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"
Ian Slattery

Hi Peter

There is a case study on the pico forum, which might be worth a read.

https://www.picoauto.com/support/topic9761.html

I have seen a couple with injector driver faults proved with a scope, and the ecu can suffer from water damage.

Regards Ian.

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 30, 2016, 11:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

No fault codes no cigar.

Sometimes this monster from cold will crank for almost a minute before it will fire & run.

Why no fault codes???

Surely there must be a deviation in something for the fault code table to chew at!!

key hard over.....
chug chug chug chug chug chug chug chug chug chug (Ah! ECU see something, Fault code time) chug chug chug chug chug chug chug chug chug cough cough cough growl it's alive

i can undersand no fault code under......
chug chug chough fire run

There is about 50 fault codes in the table relating to injectors alone.

Sa La Vie

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by andrew pethig <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3731' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 31, 2016, 5:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

what does it take for a engine to run ? compression, air , and fuel at the right time, so if the exhaust is not blocked, it will have air, if the timing is correct it will have compression it just leaves fuel.

you know is has all the above because it will run in the end.

will it run with a sniff of easy start ??

my guess is that it will, so its back to fuel.

you have rail pressure cranking, so that leaves the injectors,

because its always the injectors, time after time, Thread after thread mucho hair pulled out o ....... round and round we go.......

INJECTORS... stick a scope on them see if the computer is firing them ,if you have the correct wave form, pull them out and send them for testing.

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 31, 2016, 10:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"
Peter Mashiter

Your right!

I have no hair left

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Mick Gormley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5597' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 1, 2016, 2:06 pm, in reply to "Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"
Mick Gormley

Hi Peter

Remove the MAP sensor they sometimes block almost solid, it sits right on top of the throttle housing only takes a minute to check. Also we had a few of these that only show fault codes when the ecu is flashed with the latest software, usually egr related .

Cheers Mick

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 1, 2016, 6:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

Checked MAP sensor unit. A bit dirty! Cleaned & checked.

Reading at 28.6 inHG at idle. 28.6 inHG key on engine off.

Reading 33.5 inHG at fast idle 3000 rpm

Both EGR valves look like they have been replaced
recently.

Looking at injector cylinder offset readings at idle.....

Cyl 1 927.88
Cyl 2 1398.32
Cyl 3 755.56
Cyl 4 1283.52
Cyl 5 821.65
Cyl 6 641.03

These vary & are very hard to interpret what we should get!!
Is there a potential problem with injectors 2, 4 & 6 i wonder??

Can we tame this beast????

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Mick Gormley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5597' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 1, 2016, 6:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"
Mick Gormley

Hi Peter

As Keith has said drop the starter and pin it up,
we have had these run rough for a few miles after changing cambelts, never found out why, possibly some sort of adaptation ? also worth doing a smoke test the y seals on the throttle body do leak.

Cheers Mick

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 1, 2016, 9:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"

Y seals seem O.K! Don't see how a induction leak would cause a non start long cranking period before starting from cold!!!

Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom

Posted by Mick Gormley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5597' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 2, 2016, 12:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Jaguar / S Type - Poor cold starting / misfire symptom"
Mick Gormley

You did post,
misfire / erratic idle symptoms with slight exhaust emission???

Re: Jaguar S Type 2.7D V6 2005 - Poor cold starting, misfire symptom #

Posted by Peter Mashiter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3935' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 2, 2016, 2:47 pm, in reply to "Jaguar S Type 2.7D V6 2005 - Poor cold starting, misfire symptom #"
Peter Mashiter

All symptoms described in the first post.

Too many symtpoms all in one go to cram on description.

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