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Landrover Freelander 2.0 TD4 2005 - Excessive diesel smoke - Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow on November 22, 2013, 8:00 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2005
Engine Size and Code *: 2.0 Ltr TD4
( Optional ) Scanner Used: Autocom + ACR4 G2
( Optional) Fault Codes: None

Greetings,

I would be grateful for thoughts on this from my learned friends:

HISTORY. This vehicle was bought a customer very recently and because it had been off the road for a few months decided to give it a service which included a new diesel filter. He also removed the catalytic converter (more power) and disconnected the vacuum pipe to the EGR valve (better performance/economy). Vehicle drove well as before for a few days and then developed excessive diesel smoke at about 2500 rpm and on start up. This was accompanied by a misfire at about 2500 rpm. He then replaced 4 injectors (uncoded), and after realising he had put the incorrect grade of oil into the vehicle (5-30w fully synthetic)changed to the correct grade of 10-40w semi-synthetic. All this made no difference and was taken to the local garage whereupon I was asked to have a look.

FINDINGS: No fault codes stored. The garage had already substituted a know good MAF. Inspected the EGR Valve and replaced its vacuum pipe. All pipes and hoses appear to be in order. The FRP sensor has been already been converted to the modified unit. I checked the software for a bad remap which was not the case. I have provided the following initial data:

Airflow: Idle 504mg/injection 2500rpm 560mg/inj

Inlet manifold pressure: Idle 100Kpa 2500rpm 110Kpa

Low Pressure Supply: 372Kpa 2500rpm 340Kpa

Fuel rail pressure: 28659Kpa 2500rpm 73618Kpa

What I have found is that the airflow measurement of 560 mg/injection is a lot lower than another TD4 I have checked and as the MAF appears to be OK, I am wondering if the lower figure is due to a restriction post MAF. Turbo for example?

So, before the garage decides to rave the Turbo out for examination, I would be grateful for your thoughts.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 22, 2013, 9:00 pm, in reply to "Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"

>>> What I have found is that the airflow measurement of 560 mg/injection is a lot lower than another TD4 I have checked <<<

really? What are you expecting and how are you working out what is hot & what is not?

All you need to know is in your post. Looks like the measurements were taken without EGR operating?

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 22, 2013, 10:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that. In the garage was another TD4 and I looked at the live data for that which showed from memory about 900mg/injection at 2500 rpm. This vehicle runs fine. The MAF was taken off that and put on the problem vehicle which then read the same as the original, ie 560mg/injection.

So are we saying that there is a fault with the EGR with the problem vehicle? I have been told the EGR has been reconnected and was operating correctly. I accepted that without checking myself.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 22, 2013, 11:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"

>>> In the garage was another TD4 and I looked at the live data for that which showed from memory about 900mg/injection at 2500 rpm <<<

That's quite possible, but the other data (on the donor vehicle) would have been different and would hold the secret to your problem.

Certain live data have a relationship with other live data and tell a story when viewed together.

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Steve Norman <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5548' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 23, 2013, 6:31 am, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Steve Norman - Administrator

Hi,
What about the depression valve on the rocker cover part number 8510298, as fitted to the bmw's etc.

This will cause excessive smoke if not been changed.

regards
Steve

Regards
Steve

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 23, 2013, 9:00 am, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"

Thanks Mark and Steve,

Spoke to the garage this morning and can report the following:

The problem vehicle was tested without the EGR vacuum pipe connected. Initially it was reconnected and made no difference to the problem and after inspecting the EGR valve, the vacuum pipe was again disconnected before my arrival. The sample vehicle was also tested by me with the vacuum pipe to the EGR disconnected. So in essence, the figures I provided for both vehicles were with the EGR vacuum pipe disconnected utilising the same known good MAF. Sorry for the mis-information. I assumed that both EGR vacuum pipes were connected.

The depression valve on the rocker cover was inspected prior to my arrival and found to be clear.

Incidentally, because the catalytic converter has been removed, the turbo could be heard through the exhaust system when the engine was revved.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 23, 2013, 9:30 am, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi Pete.
If the EGR was disconnected or blocked the air mass should be higher not lower.
Look at your boost pressure @2500 RPM. I would expect to see a much higher figure like 200 KPA which would corespond to around 900mg/stroke.
You could be onto something with turbo/ exhaust blocked. I would also bechecking for boost leaks and turbo control.
MAF calc is a very good app for working out air mass on engines.
HTH Fiachra.

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 23, 2013, 1:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Thanks for that Fiachra. There does not appear to be a facility on Autocom to check the boost pressure as you prescribe nor turbo control. I might have to check if my ACR4 can provide this information. I am reliably informed that all turbo pipes have been checked for leaks although one pipe is deemed as "soft" and may be collapsing under acceleration. This will be checked later today.

UPDATE: By removing the pipe from the MAF to the turbo, it is now established that the turbo spins freely but at this stage has not been inspected fully. Indeed, as previously mentioned a turbo whistle can be heard from the exhaust.

To establish if there is an exhaust blockage I might have to nip down to the garage armed with my vacuum gauge to see if there is a suitable take off pipe on the inlet manifold. Another thought perhaps is that although the MAF might be functioning correctly, perhaps there is a wiring fault allowing incorrect information being relayed to the ECU.

It is interesting that this vehicle was running OK until immediately after the service whereupon the problems manifested themselves. I also have now gathered that the original 5 - 30 oil is acceptable for this vehicle.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 23, 2013, 6:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi Pete.
Inlet manifold pressure is the boost pressure.
Personaly I would drop the exhaust and see what happens.
HTH Fiachra.

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 23, 2013, 6:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Mark Carter

Fiachra has told you everything you need to know.

Join the dots up and the light bulb will light up

its all about relationships.

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 23, 2013, 8:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Thanks to you both,

I will get them to disconnect the exhaust system at the Cat by-pass pipe to see what happens. I should mention that the middle box has also been removed by the owner during the service. Interestingly, I Autocom'd both vehicles to compare figures and the only difference I could see was in the Airflow figures. In other words, the boost pressure was the same for both vehicles...unless I overlooked it.

Will let you know nonetheless. Many thanks again.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Andrew West <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5350' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 24, 2013, 8:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Andrew West

Hello Pete,
Have you checked the boost pressure regulator/control valve is working? I can't see any mention of it in your posts.
You could use your vacuum pump to control the turbo.
The turbo doesn't appear to be boosting, which as Fiachra has said could be an exhaust blockage, but could also be the boost control valve. (They do fail quite often).
Also, have you checked that the turbo actuator is moving?
Regards, Andrew
Ps, most td4's "misfire" at around 2200-2500rpm.

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 24, 2013, 9:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Andrew,

Many thanks for that. I am not sure how to check the boost pressure/regulator valve but I can say for certainty that the turbo actuator is working in that when the vehicle starts, you can see the rod move. I assume that should be the case. In any case, I will get it checked out tomorrow.

As an aside, apart from the smoke, this vehicle performs really well without any loss of power.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by aidan birley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2879' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 24, 2013, 9:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Aidan Birley

Pete

>>> As an aside, apart from the smoke, this vehicle performs really well without any loss of power.
<<<<

does this misfire or just smoke then? what colour is the smoke ?

If it is just blue smoke check the breather filter (as suggested)

Cheers Aidan

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 24, 2013, 11:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"

Hi Aiden,

Thanks for that. It is plumes of black/blue smoke at about 2 - 2500 RPM accompanied by a mis-fire. A destroyer in WW2 laying a smoke screen would be proud of it! The garage who are better versed than me on diesels tell me its diesel smoke which can be smelt.

We have doubts about it being an exhaust blockage because the performance is good and there appears to be a good flow from the exhaust system. Only the back box is left intact (cat and middle box removed) and I cannot see what can block the back box. However, it has not been discounted but we will focus our attention on the boost pressure regulator first.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 25, 2013, 11:30 am, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"

Hi Pete,

What are the swirls valves doing whilst this thing is playing up?

Regards
Carl

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Derek Sumnall <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5381' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 25, 2013, 1:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Derek Sumnall

Hi Pete

The back box corrodes with baffle plates obstructing flow,insufficient heat results in water remaining.

Dek

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 25, 2013, 2:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Thanks Carl and Derek,

I have just been digging on the internet with reference to the swirl flaps. Although a lot of modern BMW engines have these potential disasters waiting to happen, the Freelander does not appear to have them fitted.

The back box is corroded on the outside and was going to be the customers "next job". This job may well be brought forward for tomorrow.

Thanks both.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Tony Attwood <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3025' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 25, 2013, 8:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"

Hi Pete,
You are in a fortunate position to have a donor vehicle that data can be read from & as Mark has said, the answer will be in the live data shown between the two.

I'm with Fiachra where he mentioned,
>>>Look at your boost pressure @2500 RPM. I would expect to see a much higher figure like 200 KPA which would corespond to around 900mg/stroke<<<
I would also release the exhaust from turbo & see what changes, if anything.

What is the signal wire voltage from MAF at idle, 1500 & 2500 revs on donor vehicle and faulty vehicle along with the boost pressure & airflow readings at the same RPM?

>>>I am reliably informed that all turbo pipes have been checked for leaks<<<

Do you know how this was done Pete & did the checks include the intercooler, can you smoke or otherwise pressure test the intake system from turbo outlet to intake manifold ?

The only pipe that would collapse under acceleration would be the pipe from MAF/air filter to turbo inlet, all other pipes will be, or should be, positive pressurised so wont collapse but may expand, split or leak.

Regards, Tony

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 26, 2013, 6:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Thanks Tony. The back box has now been changed with no difference. Pipes and hoses will be removed tomorrow and inspected. We still have the donor car in so I expect to get back down there on Thursday to have another look. I think this thing has a variable vane turbo and although it spins freely, I wonder if this could be a problem. Will have a look at ways of testing the turbo pressure sensor/regulator...... and anything else that can be prescribed.

Regards

Pete M

PS. I am told this vehicle has excessive diesel consumption which I don't think has been mentioned before although it doesn't come as any surprise.

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Keith brown <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1429' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 26, 2013, 10:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Keith Brown

Pete you mention BLACK smoke this can only be too much fuel or not enough air!
The air/fuel ratio is wrong on this car
There are no codes & the car performs ok
Look harder for a split hose , take a step back to basics
Sometimes we get carried away with technology
Shame the injectors were changed before the oil !
Wouldn't of been my first move
Don't mean to be hard but we are all guilty of not thinking outside the box ,hope you sort it soon

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Steve Norman <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5548' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 28, 2013, 5:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"

Hi Pete,

I'm a little confused?
Black smoke, or diesel misfire?
What are the problems with the car? A misfire while revving at 2200-2800 stationary is normal on this engine, or is it missing under load?
How was the depression valve checked? the little filter, or the depression valve itself? why wasn't it just changed?
When does it smoke? normal driving? under acceleration?

regards
Steve

Regards
Steve

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 28, 2013, 7:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Thanks Steve, you pose some searching questions which prompted me to clarify the answers with the customer a few minutes ago. The heavy smoking appears to only happen whilst the vehicle is stationary at about 2500 RPM (as you suggested). This is accompanied by a misfire. He generally only travels during the hours of darkness and he has not seen any evidence of smoke whilst driving. The smoke smells heavily of diesel and is blue/black in colour. His MPG is poor approx. 28 MPG (after filling up today.) The smoking and poor MPG is his main problem and it is doubtful if it would pass the MOT smoke test. This is his second TD4 and never had these problems with his first (02) vehicle. The rest of your questions are covered in the update.

UPDATE: We did not have a donor car to play with today but we did the following. The turbo actuator rod moves fully when you blip the throttle. The turbo hoses expand also (before and after the intercooler). Applying vacuum to the MAP sensor shows exactly the same reading on Autocom. Now the interesting bit. The inlet manifold was removed and was badly coked with baked oil. It has a strange set up with 4 inlet manifold ports and 4 ports to the rocker cover. 6 of these 8 ports were covered in oil. The depression valve was removed which has a spring loaded diaphragm and not knowing how this should be tested, it has been now been replaced. The inlet manifold has now been thoroughly cleaned and the whole lot will be re-assembled tomorrow upon receipt of new gaskets and seals etc.

I await with bated breath.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 29, 2013, 6:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Greetings,

Right, I think we have got to the bottom of this. Everything put back to together and sadly the excessive smoke is the same. Customer drove along the motorway and the driveability is excellent but the smoke is only present when driving in too low a gear in traffic or stationary at about 2500 rpm when it is very excessive. I noted in my first post that airflow at 2500rpm (stationary) was 560 mg/injection but although todays subsequent test shows exactly the same at those revs, it did climb rapidly after the smoke and misfire subsided. Now the theory is this: The customer undertook an engine flush whilst changing the oil and filter and also ran diesel through it as well. We suspect it removed the sealing around the rings and bores. This can be borne out by how the smoke decreased when he put the thicker 10-40w oil in after the initial 5-30w. We suspect that the engine misfire also contributed to the blue/black smoke which is a mix of unburnt diesel and oil.

The way forward: Customer is going to keep the car as it is initially but will add something to the engine oil (any suggestions?) to help seal the rings etc. Because he is fastidious with his vehicles, he will most probably strip the engine down for a re-build after Xmas.

Obviously, I will post any further developments if and when they occur.

Many thanks for the many responses and interest.

Regards

Pete M

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Steve Norman <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5548' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 30, 2013, 6:42 am, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Steve Norman - Administrator

The later freelanders , compared to his earlier 02 model miss & blow smoke at the revs you state.
This smoke is not a small amount. For comparison, find another 05 model or thereabouts, & do the same stationary rev test.

Obviously I can't see your smoke over the forum, but would guess it'll be the same after he has stripped & rebuilt the engine.

regards
Steve

Regards
Steve

Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 30, 2013, 7:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Peter Mutlow

Hi Steve,

Yes, you mentioned about this problem earlier on the later TD4's. However, the donor vehicle was an 05 plate and if it smoked, it certainly wasn't as impressive as this one. Might try and get it on You Tube for all the contributors to see.

Anyway, the owner has ordered some "stuff" to try and will give it a dose next week. Will post the results.

Regards

Pete M

Fixed #

Posted by Pete Mutlow on January 13, 2014, 5:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Landrover Freelander - Excessive Diesel Smoke"
Edited by board administrator January 14, 2014, 2:28 pm

This vehicle appears to be running fine now. Customer put in an additive which I think was called Re-New from AMTEC. He asked me to re-map it about a week ago and although there was still a little bit of smoke it appears to have cleared up altogether now. Runs much smoother and he is very pleased with the outcome.

I thank all those who took an interest with help and advice and I have a very happy customer which is what its all about.

Regards

Pete M

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