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Vauxhall Movano 2.5 CDTi 2007 - Non start, code P0089 pressure regulation senor circuit - Fixed #

Posted by John Hall on June 2, 2011, 12:25 am

Year of Manufacture *: 2007
Engine Size and Code *: 2500
( Optional ) Scanner Used: kts
( Optional) Fault Codes: p0089

Have a Vauxhall Movano towed in non runner fault codes P0089 pressure regulation sensor circuit 'overheating!' with other codes referring to the air mass p0108/110 though these have cleared and were probably a result of the rac lad pulling plugs off when testing as faults are cleared without return.
The symptoms are very difficult to start with pressure only 100-150 bar but eventually starts at about 350 bar will run if throttle held at 3000rpm pressure 550- 600 bar but if left to tick over fuel pressure diminishes eventually stalling when dropping below 150bar.When attempting to drive eng man light comes on at about 40 mph and vehicle stops but will restart after severe cranking and allowing to limp back to garage where on code reading the p0089 code is there with the strange statement of pressure regulation sensor circuit overheating.Have come across this code quite a lot primarily on nissan and had success with simply replacing the imv valve on the side of the pump and carrying out a fuel adaption, on this occasion a new unit has not cured the problem.Have done the normal leak off checks at idle and speed without any excess from any one injector.Provided separate supply to eliminate tank and filter to no avail,scoped injectors and imv valve all wave forms appear good with the duty cycle of the imv being 30% and the fuel temp reading approx 50- 60 degrees.My question is what is the cause and effect of the sensor saying it is overheating?Does it appear that the pump is making it work overtime ? though i don't see any over pressure from the pump according to the pressure sensor output which i am monitoring permanently throughout.I have also tested the pumps ability to provide max pressure by blanking off the imv valve which sort of eliminates the pump would you think.Any thoughts would be a help.Regards J

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by aidan birley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2879' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 2, 2011, 8:01 am, in reply to "Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Aidan Birley

John Hall

I would question the description i.e overheating, could be just a poor translation, what scanner ?

http://www.dtcsearch.com/P0089/

what is the low presure supply pump on these ?

cheers aidan

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by John Hall on June 2, 2011, 9:13 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Message modified by board administrator June 3, 2011, 2:07 pm

Agree could be Bosch Kts translation as never seen that description before.No low pressure pump on this model cleaned out tank in case of poor fueling but nothing particularly out of the ordinary,though problem started not long after the customer filled up in london could have been caused by poor quality fuel? May have the result of pump damage though no sign of fillings when fuel removed.

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by aidan birley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2879' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 2, 2011, 1:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Aidan Birley

hi

does it have a hand primer ? has it it the low pressure pump on back of high pressure pump?

cheers aidan

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 2, 2011, 8:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Mark Carter

Hi,
if you are using KTS, what info is in ESI? and have you followed the guided fault process for the fault code.

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by Kevin Apps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2589' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 3, 2011, 10:16 am, in reply to "Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Kevin Apps

John
The engine code would help, as there are several 2.5 cdti,s
Kev.

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by John Hall on June 3, 2011, 7:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Message modified by board administrator June 6, 2011, 3:00 pm

It does have a hand primer with regulator on side of pump.Have followed kts fault process to the letter will explain only one area of grey in that looking at the metering unit set value should be between 0-500ma the actual figure with the ignition on is approx 450ma but what is strange is the figure with the engine running grows to 1250ma not sure if the reading should be within spec at idle both metering units the old and new both show this figure which may be the cause and effect of the cutting out at say 30mph which produces this code 'p0089 sensor overheating' though the duty cycle from the unit is in spec at 31 degrees and the vehicle will idle all day now.On road testing with kts connected the only fault noticeable is obviously the pressure drops to zero the instant the the eng man light comes on,though no excess pressure or slowly diminishing pressure is observed.The engine code is G9U 632 bosch cr/dc 16c36.

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by aidan birley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2879' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 3, 2011, 8:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Aidan Birley

UKAT5246

I still wonder if you have a low pressure supply issue. Try pumping hand primer while cranking, see if that improves starting.

You did not say if this has the low pressure pump on back of high high pressure unit.

I have also heard respected trainers stress the importance of checking pressure in leak off / return. apparently excessive back pressure can cause issues.

cheers Aidan

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by Kevin Apps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2589' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 3, 2011, 9:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"

John

I will check some data now you have posted the engine code.

To make things easier, look how easy it is to read Aidan,s and my post,s, and how difficult your block text is to read.

Kev.

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by Alan Kane <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5535' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 4, 2011, 6:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Alan Kane - Administrator

John,

P0089 will set on that system for one of three reasons –
1 ECU sees rail pressure too low
2 ECU sees rail pressure too high.
3 ECU sees a fault with the circuit.

If the ECU cannot control the pressure and it sets P0089 then the ECU will shut it down.

Are you sure this doesn’t have a pump in the tank? The wiring diagram shows one (Opel TIS2K).

If you scope the reg duty v the pressure sensor signal while cranking then you should see the ecu commanding the pressure. That should give you a better idea of what is happening.
The reg current will vary with the duty cycle. Are you scopeing the current? Scope it versus the duty cycle and see if the changes in both match. This could show you a resistance change in the circuit.

What method did you use to check the HP pump?

Do you mean the duty cycle is 30% and not changing? As far as I recall that system will go into a default mode when it cannot control the pressure and that is probably why you are seeing the 30% duty cycle.

It might be an idea to check the pressure sensor as well since this is the source of the info which is causing the ECU to act up(unless the code refers to a circuit problem).

HTH

Alan

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by John Hall <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5246' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 6, 2011, 9:26 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"

Since draining the tank and filling with clean fuel I now have no starting issues,but still have the cutting out under load with the subsequent fault code p0089 regulation overheating?

Will scope the reg v the duty cycle and report back.The duty cycle info provided is within spec per info from kts and the current is info live though not scoped again whilst following the bosch procedure.

It does not have a low pressure pump in tank and doesn't appear to have anything on the back of the pump.

As mentioned before the only thing I can see out of the ordinary is the current increase from the regulator above idle which triples above the idle amp from 450 to 1250 ma.

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by John Hall on June 7, 2011, 12:50 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Message modified by board administrator June 17, 2011, 7:48 am

Alan,thanks for the input have scoped both the regulator and pressure sensor for duty cycle and voltage together with the current draw which seems to vary proportionately with the increase in rpm.

The duty cycle is in spec between 20-40% the current set value is 1308ma and actual value is 1331ma.

The voltage from the rail pressure rises from approx 1.31v to 1.89v at 3000rpm with the fuel pressure rising from 300bar to approx 600bar at 3000rpm.
When road testing the fuel pressure increases as expected on acceleration until I reach approx 30/40mph foot to the boards the engine man lights flickers and the vehicles stalls with no disproportionate pressure rise or fall and will start up immediately with no problems.

What is noticeable is a heavy crackling from I assume to be the injectors when the vehicle starts to struggle.

Finally have checked the max output from the pump by cranking with all injectors and regulator disconnected which produces approx 1200bar within 10 secs.What am I missing ??

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by John Hall <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5246' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 7, 2011, 1:35 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
John Hall

Have added a snap shot of the duty cycle and current with the voltage of the pressure sensor.

Green- current ramping,yellow- duty cycle,blue- rail pressure sensor

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by Kev Gundry <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5245' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 7, 2011, 1:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Kevin Gundry

Hi John, i think the code discription is a red herring, have you tested the injectors it sounds like you have one breaking down under full load.

i have had the same kind of fault with a sprinter drives ok until you use full throttle then cuts out, but re-starts fine

i would get the injectors tested then go from there.

HTH

Kev G

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti

Posted by Alan Kane <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=alankane' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 8, 2011, 3:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 cdti"
Alan Kane - Administrator

Hi John,

I am not familiar with the scope you are using and the scaling doesn’t seem to make sense to me but looking at the top it shows what I assume are min, max and current values? Working on those current figures, the voltage is low on the duty cycle, the ampage is too high and the duty cycle shown should result in a higher pressure signal voltage. It may be the way I am looking at it or the way you have the scope set. Maybe someone else would confirm for you what the typical figures for that particular system would be?
Was the capture taken under load, at idle etc?

I would also wonder about the peak on the last full event shown. It is mirrored on the fall of the next (half event shown) and would wonder how that developed in the following events. You have an increase in current half way through its rise which appears to be mirrored at the same point in its fall after its switched off. Its looks too uniform to be a glitch in the capture. It also appears to be linked to the point where you can clearly see the current limiting occur on previous events.

Hth

Alan

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 CDTi 2007 - Non start, code P0089 pressure regulation sensor circuit .

Posted by John Hall <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5246' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 11, 2011, 12:37 am, in reply to "Vauxhall Movano 2.5 CDTi 2007 - Non start, code P0089 pressure regulation senor circuit #"
John Hall

Sorry for delay in reply to the inputs from you guys,but have been trying injector testing which showed no fault in any of the injectors on bench testing.

Have also tried a rail pressure relief valve on the advice of Bosch technical to no avail.

Finally had the opportunuty to test data on two similar vehicles same age,one a movano the other a master,on both vehicles the only grey area is the current draw and duty cycle of the pressure regulator which is much lower than the faulty van at 700 ma 20 % duty cycle against the faulty van at 1300 ma and 30% duty cycle.

Any idea what the cause and effect of this high current draw I would have suspected the regulator but have already fitted a new unit when initially having the fault brought to me.
I will be scoping the duty cycle and current draw of the regulator together with the rail pressure whilst driving the vehicle in the hope of shining some light on this fault in case of an incorrect corrolation between demand and actual pressure.

At present i cannot see any loss of pressure when full turbo boost takes place only this dropping out when taking vehicle up to full load.

Dont you just love this game and today my Bosch esi software up grade disc has corrupted my normally perfcetly working software.Aargh!

Come on Kevin help me out here I have rectified the spacing out of the sentencing for you now I need your expertise in the technology you clearly have available to expound to us mere mortals.Lol

Btw Vauxhall technical suggested that this is a common fault and they would replace the tank,fuel lines,rail,injectors and high pressure pump est £3/4000 I suppose thats why I work late at night and weekends.Thanks for the help so far hope I can get this right and keep what was a very good customer coming back to me for the future. Times are hard enough and it is difficult to be proactive,this is one way by taking on difficult tasks and is what seperates us from the main dealers.

Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 CDTi 2007 - Non start, code P0089 pressure regulation sensor circuit .

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 11, 2011, 8:02 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 CDTi 2007 - Non start, code P0089 pressure regulation sensor circuit ."
Mark Carter

Hi John,

What system is this vehicle running?

The high duty cycle/amps draw would lead me to look into the following;

Either a poor low pressure supply,(the pump cannot generate pressure without a good supply) Can you/have you already checked the low pressure system using Vacuum/pressure gauges?

A high pressure leak,(you will struggle to generate pressure in a system that is not sealed) I know you have carried out a leak back test, but under what conditions?

Or a under performing high pressure pump.

Have you a sealed rail test kit?

HTH

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Fixed #

Posted by John Hall on June 14, 2011, 1:53 am, in reply to "Re: Vauxhall Movano 2.5 CDTi 2007 - Non start, code P0089 pressure regulation sensor circuit ."
Message modified by board administrator June 16, 2011, 5:32 pm

Thanks for the help with this dilemma,eventually found the cause and effect after much deliberation and scoping.

When the stalling was occurring at say 3000 rpm, boost pressure results were at various levels approx 2000mbar ,air flow approx 400mgs but rail pressure varied from 1100bar to 1500 when stalling occurred.The regulator current was consistently around 1100-1300ma and the pressure sensor was 2.5-3.5 volts nothing out of the ordinary other than the high current draw from the regulator against a known good vehicle current draw of approx 600ma,even later with the other new unit the draw was the same and is obviously correct for this vehicle?

Looking at the output from the regulator both voltage,current and duty cycle together with the voltage from the rail pressure sensor it was difficult to see any real cause and effect until I increased the data to a 5 second time base and looked at the data from the 'helicopter' perspective and immediately saw that the pressure voltage was clearly out of sync with the duty cycle and current from the regulator, again suggesting a defective slow responsive regulator.

I bit the bullet(not a silver one) and tried another regulator.

Doesn't it do your head in when you find the brand new unit fitted was defective.
Fit new unit, scoped system ,road tested perfect and much better clarity from wave forms pressure viz a viz duty cycle and current more lively and responsive,though again difficult to interpret without the facility of multiple records from the oscilloscope.
Thanks again for the constructive input guys.

The name of the game today is if you don't scope you guess.I thought a smoke tester was the best purchase last year,this year will definitely be a picoscope provided we don't go skint chasing jobs like this.(Or maybe a fuel quality check meter??)

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 16, 2011, 8:32 pm, in reply to "Fixed #"

Hi John

"""until I increased the data to a 5 second time base and looked at the data from the 'helicopter' perspective and immediately saw that the pressure voltage"""

Wey hey!!!

I knew if I kept banging on about it, someone would catch on. To be fair though, credit for the "helicopter view" catch phrase goes to James Dillon. He taught me about it back in 2007 & I have been banging on about it ever since.

the study of duty cycle VS pressure signals on a fast time base setting can be very limiting, in what you can learn. As you have discovered, the "birds eye" view

gives you the opportunity to see the "trend" & not just the "now" in an event, as many scope users are used to (especially Snap-On scope users

)

Pico excels in this department.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by John Hall <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5246' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 16, 2011, 11:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
John Hall

Total agreement ordered Pico yesterday bit the bullet.Just got to pay for it now.! ahgh

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