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Peugeot Expert III 1.6 HDi 9HU 2007 - When driven hard engine dies, codes 0087 & 0093 - Unresolved #

Posted by Fiachra Purcell on January 18, 2013, 2:07 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2007
Engine Size and Code *: 1.6 Hdi 9HU
( Optional ) Scanner Used: Dec SS2 and maxidas ds708
( Optional) Fault Codes: 0087, 0093

Hi.
0087 Diesel high pressure regulation circuit pressure below reference value
0093 Diesel high pressure regulation circuit pressure below setting and pump filling flow setting too high.

When driven hard on the open road this engine dies.Fault codes point to fuel pressure faults so I scoped rail pressure sensor. The rail sensor maxes out at 3.1v (1100/1200 Bar). On live data you can see a 100 to 150 Bar difference between desired and actual pressures. Did a leak off test on the injectors. All were even and slow to leak. I hooked up my WPS to the fuel supply. I am getting -62 mbar at full revs or -50 mbar at idle. I clamped the pipe and the pressure went up to -500 mbar. I cant find specs for this car but from a similar car these figures look good.
Thinking it was the high pressure pump I shorted out the IMV valve. The fuel pressure went straight to 4.8v (1800 bar). This proves the pumps ability to produce the required pressure and the rails ability to hold the pressure.
I have run out of ideas.
If anyone has any more ideas or can think of something I haven't checked I would be grateful for your views.
Sorry about the essay.
Thanks.
Fiachra

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Matt Booth <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3028' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 3:32 pm, in reply to "Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Matthew Booth

Have you tried a fuel filter?

Matt

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies #unresolved#

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 4:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"

Hi
I should have said I did replace the filter with a Mahle unit as the old one was a UFI that was only on it for 3 weeks. I also tested the fuel pressure before and after the fuel filter. Both were the same.
I have just tested a 2012 renault 2.0 Dci fuel pressure and it was 105 mbar @ idle and went up to 840 mbar when clamped.
I am beginning to think my fuel pressure is a bit low. Does anyone have the official specs. I have tried getting on to peugeot service box but I am still waiting for activation. No info on Autodata or Bosch Esi.
Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Peter Warman <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=Peter+Warman' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 5:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Peter Warman

Hi Fiachra

From AutoVista

High pressure. 300 to 1600 bar
Low pressure 4.5 to 6.0 bar

1.6 HDi 2006 9HU

HTH

Peter

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 5:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi
Thanks for the reply Peter.
From those specs there must be a pump in the tank. I could not find a pump or any wiring. I will have to drop the tank to check properly.
Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 7:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi.
I just checked. There is definitely no pump in the tank.
Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Alan Lange <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3293' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 10:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Alan Lange

Hi Fiachra, I'd be thinking of fuel flow rather than fuel pressure.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Mark Murphy <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1035' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 10:06 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Mark Murphy

9HU engine uses CP3 system with mechanical suction pump as far as I can remember.
you should be reading a negitave value.
try clamping the supply and it should drop below - .5 bar.
And with all things french have you checked wiring to the valve?
Mark

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 10:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Mark Carter

Is it a CP3 system as Mark thinks ? or A.N.other?

Once we know the system we can advise further.

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 10:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi
It is a cp 3.
I clamped the return pipe already and got 500 mbar (0.5 Bar).
I current clamped the IMV valve as well as checking voltage. Both looked OK.
I did not check fuel flow as it is negative pressure, I assumed flow has to be correct or I would have a higher negative pressure ( more vacuum).
All thoughts and ideas are welcome.
Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 11:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Mark Carter

Do you have a gauge that will read negative pressure that you can "tee" in to the supply circuit?

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 18, 2013, 11:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi Mark.
I have a WPS sensor. I do not have a proper dial gauge though or a fuel flow gauge.
Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2013, 9:00 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Mark Carter

PM sent.

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2013, 12:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Lee Mackintosh

If you were to clamp the supply pipe (suction line) in my mind surely this would make the mechanical lift pump work harder, although it will reduce fuel flow. So you'd expect a higher negative reading not a lower reading nearer to pressure.

Is that correct?

If it doesn't alter the vacuum reading could it mean a leak within the supply line or a weak lift oump?

I realise I'm asking questins and not helping (I can't if I'm honest) but at least I can learn if my thinking is incorrect.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2013, 1:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi Lee.
You are correct. I have just reread my original post.
"I am getting 62 mbar at full revs or 50 mbar at idle. I clamped the pipe and the pressure went up to 500 mbar"
That should read "I am getting -62 mbar at full revs or -50 mbar at idle. I clamped the pipe and the pressure went up to -500 mbar"
Sorry for any confusion caused.
Asking questions also helps as it makes me think about the answer. Sometimes the solution is in the question.
I am just looking through the Peugeot website now looking for specs.Hopefully I can find them.
Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by David Clayson <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2013, 3:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"

Hi

Have you tested for air ingress into low side of the system?

David

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2013, 7:35 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi David.
I have checked for air ingress. There is no air getting into the fuel lines. I sealed the low pressure side and applied vacum to make sure the system had no leaks. The vacum did decay but over several minutes.I also tried smoking the fuel lines.
I tried a seperate fuel source and rechecked fuel pressure. It was still the same at -90 mbar cold dropping to -62 mbar warm.The pressure goes to -500 mbar when the pipe is clamped. The official Peugeot spec is -100 mbar to -300 mbar while running.
I test drove the car from cold while recording live data. I could see the longer I drove the IMV valve had to work harder (increased duty cycle) to maintain pressure. When accelerating hard you can see the IMV duty cycle going up while the pressure starts to drop.
To be honest I have run out of ideas at this stage. I think it is a faulty high pressure pump but I am unwilling to condemn it without proof.
Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2013, 8:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Lee Mackintosh

I'm still slighly confused to be honest.

If you were to put a vaccum gauge inline with the fuel supply pipe but black off the pipe after the gauge shouldn't this really make the lift pump work hard so produce its best achievable suction (hgher than when its running i'd say) Obviously that's how i would think it should operate.

Also is it not possible for the imv duty to demand more fuel as per its input from AFM/MAP, frp senosr and app sensor etc but be mechanically sticking so preventing fuel to pass to the high pressure side.

Just thinking out loud really but this may explain why at low engine speed its ok and just about has enough fuel but higher the engine speed the less fuel available.

Is it also possible for an injector to leak back to much fuel at high rpm but be ok at low rpm. (i would think not as it would be difficult to start but that's only a guess).

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2013, 8:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi Lee.
The vacuum gauge (wps 500) was put in line with the fuel supply pipe. You have to blank the pipe off before the gauge or you will not get a reading on the gauge. When I blanked off the supply line my vacuum rose to 500 mbars from 60 mbars unblanked.

When I checked the IMV duty cycle I also current clamped the IMV valve.If the valve was sticking I should be able to see it in the current trace. The IMV maxes out at 30% on time according to Peugeot.

I am sure the injector leak is possible at higher revs but impossible to test unfortunately (as far as I know). This engine is limited to 2500 RPM while stationary at full throttle. I did test the leak back rates at 2500 RPM. All were equal.

One thing I have not mentioned is that the leak back from the pump looks excessive. That is a personal opinion. I have never looked at leak back from CP3 before. Would this account for my low supply vacuum? It would account for loss of high pressure under load.

I hope this clears it up a bit. I am happy to answer any questions you have so dont be shy.

Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2013, 9:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Mark Carter

>>> injector leak is possible at higher revs but impossible to test unfortunately (as far as I know).<<<

The test bench will test the injector over a wide Rpm and pressure range.

Mark

PS. what does the pump produce when you dead head it?

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 20, 2013, 1:23 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi Mark.
I have not dead headed the pump. What I have done is earthed the IMV valve through a test light to see what happened. The pressure went up to 1800 bar ( live data,4.8V on the scope). This all happened @ idle. Is this enough to prove the pump?

I am thinking that the pump cannot supply enough pressure when under load because of excessive leak back from the pump (I am clutching at straws now).

Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 20, 2013, 11:39 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Mark Carter

Is this system single or duel point control?

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 20, 2013, 11:59 am, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi Mark.
It only has one IMV valve. It is located on the pump.
I can not see any control valve on the rail (it is nearly impossible to see the rail). Peugeot information shows only one contol valve.
Thanks.
Fiachra.

Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies

Posted by Fiachra Purcell <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3006' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 21, 2013, 2:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Peugeot Expert 3 When driven hard engine dies"
Fiachra Purcell

Hi.
I just had a 307 with a 9hx engine. I tested the fuel Vacuum on it. It was the same as my expert. I also checked the fuel return. It was also very similar.
No matter how hard I drove the 307 the IMV never went above 26%. The expert regularly goes to 30%

Thanks.
Fiachra.

Unresolved #

Posted by Fiachra Purcell on January 24, 2013, 8:10 pm, in reply to "Peugeot Expert III 1.6 HDi 9HU 2007 - When driven hard engine dies, codes 0087 & 0093 #"
Message modified by board administrator January 25, 2013, 2:27 pm

Unfortunately customer has decided to trade the van.

Thanks for all the help.

Fiachra

I can't seem to change my original post to unresolved. If anyone knows how could they let me know please. It was edited by an administrator just in case that's why I can't edit it.

Re: Unresolved #

Hi Fiachra

Do not worry about editing posts, so long as a resolution is posted we will edit posts as required

Peter

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