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BMW X3 TDi 3.0 2005 - Plumes of grey / white smoke - Fixed #

Posted by Paul Neasham on May 29, 2012, 5:30 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2005
Engine Size and Code *: 30 6d 3 common rail
( Optional ) Scanner Used: modis and bavarian technic
( Optional) Fault Codes: 4175 4cf3 4226 4212

Could use some help and advise on this one please. Car arrives trailing plumes of grey/white smoke from the exhaust and a residue of a clean, light viscous oil like substance from the tailpipe but performing well.questioned customer re contaminated fuel and water and oil consumption none of which gave significant pointers to the cause of problem ie not topped up with oil nor water and levels were ok. Feel and smell of fuel were fine.

No eml was illuminated but fault codes retrieved were 4175 exhaust gas temp sensor before particulate filter signal error 4cf3 exhaust gas back pressure sensor signal error 4226 lambda probe signal or value below threshold there were also 6 codes for glow plugs. Road testing cleared the smoking up for short periods of time and showed no problems with performance.the breather diaphragm was checked and okd.the pipe to the pressure sensor was removed and when the engine was run small amounts of black oil were emitted.

We are sure the problem lies with the emission of this light oily substance but are unsure how to test for a) overfueling b)oil bypassing or excessive oil from turbo wear. If overfuelling was an issue would the smoke be black and performance affected especially at idle. If oil contamination would the smoke be blue. Bav tech is not great on its live data likewise modis but not sure what correct readings should be with regard to pressures and injector quantities etc.

Any help gratefully recieved

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 29, 2012, 9:16 pm, in reply to "bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Carl Ford

I don't know if this will help but surely if the glow plugs don't work then the DPF can not regen maybe you need to fix this problem then carry out a regen?

Regards
Carl

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by paul neasham <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1202' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 29, 2012, 9:23 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"

thanks for reply carl.to be honest i had completely discounted the glow plug codes ,i did not think they would have any play in the regen process.can you enlighten me to how it is achieved by bmw .cheers again paul

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Glen Strachan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat1463' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 30, 2012, 1:51 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"

The PCM will use all sorts of ways to get DPF up to temp for regen.
Dont forget these suffer with breathers blocking, but I would imagine Carl has it correct with regen issues

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 30, 2012, 5:16 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

I have in now (well for the last 6 weeks) with the exact same fault codes, the exact same fluid in the exhaust and smoke from exhaust.

I've removed all the exhaust system from turbo and the DPF looks clean as does the CAT.

The turbo does look quite carboned up but i don't think its the cause.

I had the injectors tested and all passed, that ruled them out so now i've got new glow plugs to fit and then hopefully i'll re-assemble and give it another go.

Around £40 worth of rubber gaskets just for the inlet manifold.

Afterwards I may give it a dose of the cleaning fluid SP sell as it can't do any harm.

Sorry its not much help but at least you know its unlikely to be the injectors. I thought they maybe causing an overfuelling issue.

thanks
lee

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by paul neasham <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1202' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 31, 2012, 12:01 am, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Paul Neasham

likewise lee we removed exhaust halfway down the car and found the oily substance present although it was dirty black rather than the golden syrup colour/vicousity emitted from the tailpipe.that leads us to suspect engine oil,but from where?the breather alongside the air filter/cam cover was clean inside and the diaphragm is intact ,no filter was insde its housing but have been advised some do and some dont have them according to chassis no.the injectors all have the same leak rate so dont suspect them now.glow plugs require manifold removal to remove/test individual plugs and relay is under there too so will remove that shortly,still cant find out what bearing they will have on regen though.disconected the exhaust pressure sensor and teed a pressure guage into the line and got approx 5psi at idle and 8psi @2000 rpm at the guage .is that excessive back pressure?intercooler and pipework are relatively clear of oil so dont suspect charge side of turbo, can the exhaust side pass oil directly into the exhaust?but would that not give blue smoke?will try more ideas tomorrow and keep you posted any ideas wecome regards paul

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 31, 2012, 8:04 am, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

Not sure but i think the glow plugs are activated during a regen attempt to increase in cylinder temperature but not 100% sure on that.

There is a post (I think its about a Renault) which describes the use of glow plugs during a regen process.

I've already removed the manifold which wasn't that bad although the bolts fort he manifold flap motor isn't the easiest to access other than that not to bad.

When i have time i'll reassemble and start again.

Still don't understand where the oily substance can come from, i thought it could be antifreeze at 1st but i tested with a refractrometer and it stayed at water line. Can't see the exhaust temperature burning the antifreeze away and jsut leaving water.

thanks
lee

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by James Eardley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 31, 2012, 10:53 am, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
James Eardley

Hi Paul

Regarding Glow Plugs

This is not BMW specific but if there is a glow plug error then more particulates will be produced during the warm up phase and this will contribute to the DPF getting blocked prematurley and more often.

Some systems may not be able to regenerate if there is any DTC's stored in the ECU.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment regarding glow plugs and regeneration is that for example, when you carry out a forced regen on VW cars you are instructed to activate high load consumers ie, heated front and rear screens, headlights and so on.
I believe this may put load on the engine and raise exhaust gas temperatures to aid regen. So my thought is the ECU may activate the glow plug circuit as this is a good load consumer.

Regarding the smoke you are experiencing I have had many cars emitt grey/ white smoke due to a worn turbo leaking oil on the exhaust side. Sometimes oil is obvious in the down pipe and sometimes just slight oil traces can be seen bedhind the turbo exhaust impeller in the turbo housing.

My theory behind why the smoke is grey/white and not blue is to do with the oil slowly burning off at a lower temperature in the exhaust as opposed to being combust in the combustion chamber at a much higher temperature.

In your case maybe after a run and the exhaust/turbo temperature is raised all the oil could be burning off faster than the turbo is leaking and this is why the smoking stops for a while?

Last thought the EGR is not stuck open cooling the combustion is it?

(these are just my thoughts and theories in no way am I stating this as fact)

I hope this may be of some use.

James

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by James Eardley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 31, 2012, 11:19 am, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
James Eardley

Regarding the exaust back pressure.

I have been wanting to do some exhaust back pressure research and I do not know of a suitable gauge to test this, maybe you could recommend the gauge you use and where I could purchase one.
I believe the back pressure should be minor and I dont know how exhaust gas temperature will affect normal gauges.

The info I have accquired so far regarding exhaust back pressure results comes from a reliable source. I got this info from a course I was on recently. But I have not proven these results for myself yet.

On idle 0-30mBar is good
50mBar is border line

Under load
up to 100mBar is acceptable

If I have converted this correctly 100mBar =1.45psi

So I would say that you do have a seriously restricted exhaust system.

hth
James

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 31, 2012, 2:53 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

In my case the turbo has very little movement, infact i've fitted new turbo's with more endfloat that this one.

Can;t see any traces of oil in the Particulate filter either. Alos my problem car hasn't lost or used any oil or water.

thanks
lee

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Craig Hewison <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3409' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on May 31, 2012, 9:55 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Craig Hewson

James, I made my own gauge by hacking a lambda sensor to pieces and attaching a couple of meters of hose, then I got a pressure gauge from Air Power Products (dinnington) on the other end and bobs ur uncle! Just unscrew the lambda sensor, screw this bad boy in at take it for a spin, you will have to clear the fuel trim codes after obviously! I have their number at work if you want it, plumbers merchants sell gauges too btw!

Hath
Craig

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by James Eardley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 1, 2012, 10:04 am, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
James Eardley

Craig

Thanks for the tips on the pressure sensor I have used Air Power Products before so I will give them a call today.
What is the min/max readings of your gauge?
Does the gauge have to be heat resistant or will a normal gauge be sufficiant?
How did you get on with the course in wakefield?

Lee

Could the oil substance be water from combustion mixed with a load of carbon from the exhaust system?

I don't mean to stay glued to the turbo been at fault but it may be worth checking the oil pressure, return flow of oil from the turbo and also the crankcase pressure as I feel these could also contribute to oil getting past the turbo seals of a turbo with no end float.

hth
I will keep thinking

James

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by paul neasham <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1202' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 1, 2012, 10:02 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"

thanks for all your replies so far havent been able to spend much work time on it due to other cars etc much debate and theories though.most popular is turbo leaking oil from exhaust side of impellor ,fits the symptoms but dont really know how to test for that problem other than a specialist which means removal and probable expensive exchange/repair if nothing conclusive is found.second theory is dpf/cat is blocked giving high pressure guage/sensor readings. vehicle tries to regen by secondary diesel injection after combustion injection which goes as vapourised fuel into the hot exhaust.car cant burn off and unblock the dpf possibly because glow plugs arent working hence white smoke and oily (diesel)residue.this one is probably the easier and cheaper to prove/disprove as it only involves time and knowledge .only problem is lack of knowledge.i have tried scoping the injectors at the ecu using picos automotive settings and current clamp and although i get some form of pattern when i run the car i dont know how to evaluate it and am uncertain how to post it on here.if any one thinks this theory holds any water could i have there thoughts on what the scope pattern would look like and maybe a description of how to evaluate it please

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 9, 2012, 7:38 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

I've fitted new glow plugs to this car and fitted all back together but i still have the exact same problem but no fault codes stored for Glow plugs this time.

At a loss now, i'm sure its not a turbo fault as its got no play in the turbine bearings and feels fine.

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 11, 2012, 12:16 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

Done some more testing today and found what i think maybe a couple of problems.

Signal output at DPF pressure sensor KOEO is 2.6v, KOER at idle is 2.9v

I decided then to measure exhaust pressure through the pipe that feeds the pressure sensor and have an excess in pressure i believe. (double checked with a gauge as well)

Don't see how much pressrue can be built up if hasn't got at a restriction in the DPF or CAT

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintsoh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 12, 2012, 7:15 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

This is what i've now recorded with the DPF removed. Almost zero pressure

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by paul neasham <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1202' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 12, 2012, 8:13 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"

hi sorry have not replied to responses sooner but would like something positive to submit.we had 10 psi at cruise on a guage we rigged up to the pressure sensor ,this related to 3.8v when measured with voltmeter on middle terminal.at idle pressure was 5-6 psi and sensor output was 3.5v.i thought that was too much pressure and not enough spread of voltage for a normal sensor reading.i scoped the injectors looking for an extra post injection phase but all was normal according to picos piezo injector patterns so have ruled out over fuelling for the moment.removed catalyst rechecked pressures no back pressure present refitted cat back pressure returned.removed cat again and this time removed dpf ran the car whilst watching output from turbo and a stream of black engine oil evident.no play is evident on the spindle the oil seems to be coming from behind a cylindrical insert close to the rotor but i could be wrong as the air flow through the turbo diffuses it quite a lot.we are at present fitting a new garrett turbo etc so will reply hopefully with a fixed in the next day or so.the glow plug fault seems to be the controller/relay under the inlet manifold as all the injectors checked out ok (5v).a new relay illuminates a test bulb ok.thanks for replies regards paul ps we are rodding out the catalyst as opposed to renewing it to see what the results may be

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 12, 2012, 8:58 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

I'm not sure yet if i have other issue's such as a turbo as it did smoke well when i removed the DPF but no back pressure.

The CAT is the one directly behinkd the turbo isn't it?

The DPF i'm fairly sure is the rectangle box before the rear sections that has the 4 bol fixing flanges either end.

£120 + VAT from BMW, at the moment its in a bath of TFR.

thanks
lee

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by paul neasham <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1202' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 12, 2012, 9:23 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Paul Neasham

the dpf is next to the turbo the cat is the next one down with 2 rectangular flanges .on mine the cat was blocked causing back pressure not the dpf.you might be soaking the cat .regards paul

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 12, 2012, 9:32 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

This is quite confusing as i've spoken with BMW parts departmen and the have told me the DPF or particle filter is the part with the square flanges on and the part number i quoted was matched up.

If you look online using the BMW parts catalogue it does list both parts as a particulate filter but one as the primary CAT/Filter so i'm confused.

Look in the garage management section under the heading technical links for the BMW parts catalogue.

Also the internal of the rectangle box does look more like a DPF than a CAT if you look at the picture on BM Catalysts.

thanks
lee

p.s
either way i've found the blocked part.

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by paul neasham <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1202' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 12, 2012, 10:04 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Paul Neasham

ive taken the honeycomb out of the second box ,with the rectangular flanges and it was consistant with other catalysts i have examined.the pipe to the dpf pressure sensor comes off the top box and its internals dont remind me of a catalyst .i think parts descriptions in bmw etk catalogue tend to lean more towards its an emissions component rather than technical correctness.hope so anyway!!!!.will let you know how it goes after start up regards paul

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by paul neasham <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1202' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 12, 2012, 10:36 pm, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Paul Neasham

lee if you can check out bmw tis operation 1831080-remove and install/replace dpf it shows removing the large circular clamp between turbo and dpf to enable removal so the first can has to be dpf .it sounds as though your cat is blocked like mine was.when i rodded it through i was surprised how clear it was throughout its length but the proof was in my guage readings(i hope).maybe it would have burnt off the blockage if it didnot have the oil to cope with, will never know now!! hth paul

Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on June 13, 2012, 8:02 am, in reply to "Re: bmw x3 3ltr tdi"
Lee Mackintosh

I agree Paul,

It quite clearly states its the front part so its quite confusing as to why BMW parts quoted me for the 2nd box.

Which ever part it is its blocked.

Fixed #

Posted by paul neasham on July 5, 2012, 11:24 pm, in reply to "BMW X3 TDi 3.0 2005 - Plumes of grey / white smoke #"
Message modified by board administrator July 10, 2012, 2:05 pm

Car has been gone for about 3 weeks now with no fateful phone calls or sightings of an x3 with plumes of smoke behind it. So have to conclude turbo was the problem. Since heard of 2or 3 similar engined cars with turbos replaced .many thanks for all input

Regards Paul

Re: BMW X3 TDi 3.0 2005 - Plumes of grey / white smoke #

Posted by Lee Mackintsoh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 6, 2012, 8:16 am, in reply to "Re: BMW X3 TDi 3.0 2005 - Plumes of grey / white smoke #"
Lee Mackintosh

Paul,

We have come to the same conclusion now as we've run it for a fair while with the DPF removed and oil is leaking out the Primary CAT is a fair amount with loads of blue smoke.

I think your suggestion of the 2nd CAT/DPF removing the oily smoke is spot on.

Just got to price it all up now and see what the customer wants us to do.

thanks
lee

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