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Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation - Fixed #

Posted by James Eardley on January 19, 2012, 3:10 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2006
Engine Size and Code *: 1.5 dci K9K 766 (ROF)
( Optional ) Scanner Used: snap on Modis
( Optional) Fault Codes: DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function

Hi guys

Renault Clio 2006 1.5 DCI 158000 miles
Engine code k9k766 (ROF)
It is defiantly a Delphi fuel system Auto Data says it is a 1400 bar system.

This vehicle has been to a few different garages and the customer is loosing faith and wants to take it to the dealer. I like a challenge and would like to restore the customers faith in us independents and gain a new customer and obviously fix the car LOL.

I am in the middle of building a data base of known good data and am really eager to become fluent in different common rail fuel systems. Any help is appreciated.

The vehicle chugged into the garage running very rough, knocking and leaving a cloud of white smoke behind it. I told the customer to turn the vehicle off quick as I feared internal engine damage wasn’t far off, if it hadn’t already happened.

I plugged the Modis in and retrieved code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function.

Initially I thought 1 or more of the injectors were dumping fuel into the cylinder uncontrolled and this may tie in with the fuel pressure discrepancy.

After looking through the data I noticed that the EGR position was high at 4.10v so I decided to investigate this as I really didn’t want to start the car up yet and this could explain some of my symptoms. Upon removal the EGR valve to my delight it was stuck just about fully open. I tried to clean and free it off but it clearly needs a new valve. I managed to close the valve and refitted with the plug left off so it couldn’t open and get stuck again to see if this was the cause of all my problems.

It started and idled 100 times better once the smoke had cleared.
But, when revved, the engine stumbles at 2500-3000rpm and then clears. Now I felt it was safe to do so I did a relative compression test.
I do not have known good figures but it seems ok.
RESULTS
Initial current draw was 600A settling down at 280A across all cylinders apart from 1 unidentified cylinder that was repetitively 2-8A lower than the rest. This hasn’t set alarm bells ringing just yet given the mileage of the vehicle.
I will confirm compressions with manual gauge.

On the test drive the car drove perfectly although when free revving the stutter is still present at 2500-3000rpm. Also under heavy acceleration code DF053 would be triggered. It appears I have at least 1 more problem.
First time code triggered.
Fuel pressure (setting) bar 1600 I assume this is desired?
Fuel pressure bar 1689 I assume this is actual?

Second time code triggered
Fuel pressure (setting) bar 1400
Fuel pressure bar 1249
There is definitely some fuel control issues, I have ordered an EGR valve that is coming tomorrow and would like some testing tip from you guys to accurately diagnose the fuelling issue.

I spent last night getting a test plan together to become familiar with this fuel system but I am sad to say I fell at just about every hurdle when testing started.

I read about the injectors aiding in dumping rail pressure so I scoped FRPS vs INJ current and found this very interesting (it draws a lovely picture too LOL)

Test 1 complete.
Test 2, pump max pressure and decay of leak back pressure. This didn’t go too well. I am hoping you guys can help me get ready for attack tomorrow.

I set the scope up, unplugged IMV and injectors but the car would only crank for 1 second with IMV disconnected. (this didn’t happen when I tried it on a mondeo)

Could I measure the resistance of IMV and insert a resistor of equal value to bypass this?
I powered the starter motor up manually with the IMV and injectors unplugged but rail pressure only reached 1.8v. I wondered what could have been controlling the rail pressure?

Should I start the engine and unplug the IMV and see if it can reach max pressure before it cuts out or would the injectors go into over drive and try dumping the pressure anyway.

After failing to complete this test I did a manual leakage test of the injectors and again I got some STRANGE results. At idle all injectors were leaking back very equal after a minute I raised the revs to 2500ish. All the bottles were filling up slightly faster but not excessive and still very equal. But the bottles started filling with smoke/vapour what looked like exhaust gasses.
Is this normal?
Should I be checking back leakage differently on these injectors due to there rail pressure dumping characteristics?

I realise these tests probably wont help me fix my particular problem but the more system knowledge the better I say.

If anybody has got any known good waveforms for this system including the pressure control side or info that would be fantastic.

Sorry guys I have just realised how long this post has got, I hope it doesn’t bore you too much lol.

Cheers
James

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2012, 5:18 pm, in reply to "Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)"
Mark Carter

What a change to see a post with loads of information on it, and some good questions.

PM sent.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)

Posted by Tony Sefton <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5581' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2012, 10:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)"
Tony Sefton

>>>>> Renault Clio 2006 1.5 DCI 158000 miles
customer is loosing faith and wants to take it to the dealer.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If He takes an 158K Clio to the dealer Hes either MAD or isn't worried about massive bills and no guarranteed fix. ??

I Would think the Best thing to do with one of those is to "Not" get involved with it unless :-
The Customer has got £1k - £2k + to spend on it.

OR You are Prepared to spend your time Free of Charge and You have lots of Your money that you are prepared to spend on it to please the customer.

Ohh. There is a dummy IMV available ( Part of the Bosch CRD Kit ) to plug in to allow tests to be carried out when disconnecting the original one. ( I suppose you could use an old IMV Valve if you have one Kicking about.)

P,S Be carefull and if you do decide to tackle the job and start spending your money replacing parts that are definitely faulty, Make sure the customer understands that he will have to pay for those parts even if at the end of the day he decides to pull the plug on the job as its starting to get too expensive.

( There are just too many Hidden problems that could bite you as you go along )

I personally think if the customer realised the potential cost of repair on a car like that, They would trade it in and buy a newer one.

H.T.H Mr Pessimistic

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)

Posted by Steve Kefford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1094' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 19, 2012, 10:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)"

James, good post.

With a common rail system I find it is essential to confirm fuel quality and supply before doing any sort of testing, especially if pressure faults are being generated, new fuel filter if there is any doubt as to when it was last changed and a good look and sniff test of the fuel being supplied to the pump, I spent many hours in the past chasing faults only to find the filter was restricting supply.

Vapor in the leak off bottles, worth taking a small sample of fuel and trying to light it?

Cheers
Steve

PS Just saw Tonys post above, all good points

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)

Posted by Andy Evans <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5518' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 20, 2012, 6:53 am, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)"
Andrew Evans

Words of wisdom from the wise one of Barnsley!

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)

Posted by john moutrey <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5180' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 20, 2012, 3:04 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 dci (testing tips please)"
John Moutrey

Vapour in leak back sounds more like combustion gasses coming back through faulty injectors ! cut open old fuel filter and check for the dredded metal filings too ,we all know the poss outcome if you decide to remove the inj for testing !!! they will be buggered as soon as you touch them as general rule of thumb on siemens systems !!

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #

Posted by ukat3143 <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 20, 2012, 4:53 pm, in reply to "Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #"
James Eardley

Thank you for all your replies I am really busy at the moment so I am struggling to update my progress. But can I just say the quality of the replies are second to none

There is some great knowledge on this forum
Thanks again
James

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #

Posted by Ed Kaps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5536' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 20, 2012, 5:33 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #"
Edward Kaps

James
A brilliant post which will get you all the assistance you deserve from all of those with experience of this system. Tony's advice is spot on, the injectors on that system fail if you cough near them, the HP pump is a common fail item, failing to generate sufficient pressure and pressure decay excessive, Vapour in the leak off lines??, could be combustion pressure leaking back through injector(s)or air entrained in the supply side?.
I would be strongly inclined to replace egr valve and advise the customer accordingly---unless, like myself and others on this forum, you want answers to the problems presented to you, very admirable I know, but it's taken me many years to realise that bills and wages are not paid by that type of work ( I always thought I would make it up on the next one), bet that sounds familiar to some!.

Ed Kaps

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 20, 2012, 9:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #"

Yes a good initial post & wise replies.

It doesn't hurt occasionally though to blow your brains, trying to sort out something like this, even if dare I say it... you don't earn a penny

It can be one hell of a training exercise & you can bet that it will have your full attention.

Of course the customer needs to be the right sort.

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 21, 2012, 1:53 pm, in reply to "Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #"
Lee Mackintosh

Unfortunately i can't offer any help but i'm fairly certian if ou search through the forum there are some good posts about this system with waveforms for to help understand them more.

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #

Posted by Tony Sefton <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5581' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 21, 2012, 7:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #"
Tony Sefton

PHEWWWWWW.

That was a close shave.

I Honestly expected a Good Slating as some of you guys seem to be able to fix anything and expect to be able to fix anything.

I think about what the customers reaction is likely to be when you fit a £200 part and the car still has problems and you then tell them is needs £7-800 worth of injectors and they want to know if it will definitely fix it cos You told them it needed an EGR valve and it obviously wasn't that because it didn't cure the problem.

My Tuning mate has just Cleaned the throttle housing out on a 1992 corolla for Stalling problems which cured it but it was Massively overfuelling due to a faulty 02 sensor and the customer Cannot understand how it could possibly have 2 problems . ?? Well, it is only 20 years old.

I said well, it hasn't really got 2 problems, one is just lack of maintenance.

The Main problem is you can prove that parts are faulty but you cannot guarrantee that it will be 100% perfect once youve spent £1k on it.

I Sometimes spend Money on Parts fixing Defintely faulty components such as on a Car that came in a couple of weeks ago with an AA diagnosis / Code read listing a faulty rear 02 sensor, The Customer said it occasionaly cuts out at junctions or hesitates, So I said Well, The Rear sensor may be faulty but I cannot see it causing the stalling problem, But I will Test the sensor before I fit it so that I don't replace any parts unnecessarily, So he said thats Fine, I Code read it and then checked the rear 02 sensor and found it to have an open circuit heater element, So I ordered a sensor and fitted it, We test drove it and found nothing wrong, A freind of mine came in with a bit of spare time so he test drove the car for 16 miles and at that point he pulled up at a junction and it cut out, He restarted it and it misfired and then cleared and drove back fine, He then took the plugs out and steam came out one of the cylinders. ( Head gasket failing )

The Customer came to pick up the car and wasn't happy as he had a bill for £180 for the 02 sensor inc £60 labour, We had wasted extra time proving the secondary fault and the long test drive.

And then I start thinking should I have spent hours testing before fitting the 02 sensor. ?? But He would have still had a bill for £180 As we would have then justified charging him for the Diagnostics.

As We Explained all this to him, he said hmmmmmm I wondered where all the water was going as i keep having to top it up. ?? and funnily enough, I work 17 Miles away from home, and it always cuts out at the same spot when i am nearly at work.

I too enjoy the Challenge of fixing the impossible and finding a way to fix something at a sensible price as I also think it will help me on the next few that come in.

And Its sometimes as good and cheaper than Paying for a few Days training.

Tony.

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 21, 2012, 7:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #"

How could anyone slate you Tony? You speak from a position of vast experience.

Your point regarding the uncovering of further faults is always a problem isnt it. Another wise fella discussed with me recently that "secondary" faults are often a possibility with any diagnosis & this needs to be explained to the customer, during the "pre repair" briefing.

"It is hard to diagnose a cold, when the patient has pneumonia"

A great way to express the difficulties that we are faced with.

Wise words Mr Foye!

Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 22, 2012, 8:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #"
Mark Carter

I agree with everything that has been said by all parties, especially when we are talking about a vehicle with a diamond on the front

When undertaking a diagnostic job I always explain to the customer that the faults have to be fixed as found and that once fixed there may be other faults that become apparent (that may have been masked by first fault or not testable until the first was fixed).

I would rather decline a job at this stage(and have done)than have a unhappy customer later on.

However this vehicle is fixed and I believe the customer's confidence should be restored in the independent after-market.

I will let James post the fix and how he found it. but It did not need any major parts replacing (apart from the EGR valve) just a logical methodical approach (which we are all guilty of circumventing from time to time)

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Fixed #

Posted by James Eardley on January 22, 2012, 10:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Clio 1.5 DCi 2006 - Testing tips please, code DF053 fuel rail pressure regulation function #"
Message modified by board administrator January 23, 2012, 11:25 am

Sorry for the poor response time on the updates guys.
I have had an eventful last few days that have kept me busy and none of problems have been remotley car related

that makes a change

Anyway,
From my original post I had a PM from Mark saying I could feel free to ring him if I liked.
So, I did and I dont know how he did it but he asked me some questions about this particular system, that I tried my best to answer. If I got the answer wrong, Mark proceeded to ask me the same question in a different manor until I eventually got to the correct answer.
At the end of the phone call I knew where the flaws were in my test plan and in my head i was slowly building a new one. He was that inspiring that I almost felt I could before long, put a sign up saying 'common rail deisel diagnostic specialist'

seriously though GREAT guy cheers Mark.

NEW TEST PLAN.

Quantity of fuel
Quality of fuel
Test low pressure side of fuel(suppy)
Then and only then move on to the high pressure side of fuel system(including ECU control)

I went into work with confidence and checked the quantity of fuel, gauge said 2 bars and as seen as the car was running(although rough) I belivied it.

Then I took a sample of the fuel to check the quality............ PETROL

As you can see this car fell at the 2nd hurdle.
I was over the moon but also little a bit gutted because I felt this problem wasn't going to give me the slip either way with my (until proven wrong)full proof test plan.

I took the tank down and cleaned it out.
Changed the fuel filter and flushed low pressure fuel lines out with diesel.
Refilled tank with diesel.

The customer asked me to leave the EGR valve and clean it out the best I could and he is going to trade the car in due to the possibly battered fuel system.(he is very happy with the outcome)

I have learnt that along with system knowledge and a logical approach any problem can be found.

Cheers Steve Kefford and well done

You were absloutely correct about the approach to diagnosing the problem with this car, also including your theorys about the vapour in the leak of bottles. Thanks.

Tony Sefton what a brilliant evaluation of the job presented to me. I must admit I saw the challenge and the oppertunity to learn without any thought of loosing time or money on this job. Your post seriously grounded me and made me reevaluate the customers (and mine) best interests. With the help of the new test plan I felt that I could really evaluate the job and act accordingly.
Not Mr pessimistic. Mr realistic I say. Thanks

Dave Hill I couldnt agree more with your views on taking jobs on that we are prepared to loose time/money to learn as I believe this is what us techs do everyday. All that we can hope is that we can learn enough to save time and make money on the next job that presents it self. I may be proved so very wrong over the next few years!

Thanks to everyone who replied I feel my diagnostic approach/career has changed forever.

Thanks again
James

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