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VW Passat 2.0 TDi PD BKP 2006 - Non start (with waveforms) code 16725 & 16705 - Fixed #

Posted by James Eardley on July 29, 2011, 5:16 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2006
Engine Size and Code *: 2.0 tdi pd engine code BKP
( Optional ) Scanner Used: snap on modis
( Optional) Fault Codes: 16725 p0341/ 16705 p0321

This is an intresting one guys any help is appriciated thanks in advance. Also new scope user I apoligise if waveforms aren't perfect tips on settings WELCOMED.

The vehicle is a non start but the plot thickens it has had a crank change.

The story is the oil pump gave up and the crank picked up the original garage changed the crank the vehicle hasn't started since and the car has been to many garages im hoping mine is the last.

the customer suorced his own crank and im told it is out of a VW golf 2.0 tdi pd year 2008 (no engine code)

The car came in with code p0341 cmp signal not plausable short with power. I checked timing and it was slightly out so put right with correct timing tools the cam code still comes back.

first things first does anyone have or can get a waveform of the crank and cam relationship so I can compare.

MY waveforms are took at the ecu so wiring appears ok.

Does the crank sensor pick up off flywheel or crank? original flywheel used but holes in crank could be drilled in a different place.

I have scoped number 3 injector current (scope practise) and it appears to have one injection event when first cranked then no more this is probably due to ecu seeing incorrect timing.
The injector current looks abit fuzzy but could be me setting scope up wrong.

I removed number 1 glow plug and piston is at TDC when crank locking tool is fitted.

I know its abit naughty but vehicle runs on easy start.

Thanks for looking

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by Kevin Apps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2589' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 29, 2011, 5:33 pm, in reply to "vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"
Kevin Apps

James
Special tool needed to fit rear crank seal, so most likely its been fitted incorrectly.
Kev.

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by james eardley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 29, 2011, 5:57 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"
James Eardley

Thanks for the quick reply Kevin.
I think you have hit the nail smack bang on the head I know of another garage that told me they had fell for this once but it never clicked until you just said.
Thanks again

It would be nice to get a comparison wave form still to show good and bad crank and cam relationship and prove my findings.
It would be much appreciated if somebody could get their hands on one cheers.
I might even earn some brownie points

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by keith b <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1429' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 29, 2011, 11:33 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"
Keith Brown

hi kevin , confused! crankseal fitted incorrectly? have they an internal reluctor? ps james good post new to pico myself & will be using it a much as poss.

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by james eardley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 30, 2011, 9:52 am, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"
James Eardley

Hi keith
On the end of the the crank you put the rear crank seal then i believe there is some crank still petruding to tap the relucter ring on and the crank sensor picks up off this. I will no more when I get the car stripped down. Ive enquired about the relucter ring and it apperently comes pegged up to the seal and only fits in one place. I will take photos when doing job.

Good luck with the pico learning curve.

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on July 30, 2011, 11:14 am, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"

Hi James,
>> Ive enquired about the relucter ring and it apperently comes pegged up to the seal and only fits in one place.<<

You are right, but the crank must be locked in the correct place as well.

I would try to get a scope trace from a known good one before stripping it all back out. HTH

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by james eardley <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3143' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on August 1, 2011, 10:14 am, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"
James Eardley

Hi Mark
I agree it would be brilliant if I could confirm with a know good cam and crank trace and I am going to try my upmost and find another vehicle.

I have spoke to the garage that fitted the crank and they said they thought the reluctor ring, that I suspect is fitted wrong was a dust seal, so they just put it on without much thought.

If I cant get a known good pattern I am going to go ahead and strip the box out and fit a new seal an reluctor. I will also get good cam and crank trace when job is done and post it so I hope one day it will help somebody quickly diagnose the same fault.

I will definatly be locking the crank up Mark cheers again

Thanks for all your help guys,

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by Peter Warman <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=Peter+Warman' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on August 1, 2011, 10:39 am, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"

Hi James

This is the tool you will need to remove and install the seal

.PDF install instruction to the right of the page link below

http://www.lasertools.co.uk/item.aspx?item=4772

Peter

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by dave harney <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2603' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on August 1, 2011, 1:27 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"
Dave Harney

Hi James,
I beleive this cam crank image is correct as for the BKP engine.
Hiope it helps.
Regards
Dave

You can trim a sheeps wool many times, but you can only fleece it once !

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on August 1, 2011, 11:32 pm, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"

"so they just put it on without much thought. "

The chances of it being correct are similar to that of a National Lottery win I think.

Assuming that the crank shaft sender wheel is fitted incorrectly, if you unplug the crank sensor on this, it will fire up after approx 10 seconds, as the PCM figures out where the engine is in it's cycle.

Lets hope that everything else is aligned correctly!

Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)

Posted by Jon Morgan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3190' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on August 2, 2011, 9:09 am, in reply to "Re: vw passat 2.0 tdi pd non start (with waveforms)"
Jonathan Morgan

The VAG T10134 seal tool is retailing at £151.34 + VAT direct from VAG. The laser tool looks a bit steep for an aftermarket equivalent?

As Dave says, if this engine loses signal from either the cam or crank position sensors it should start after a period of extended cranking - try unplugging the crank sensor, the engine should then start without having to deal with an implausibilty / correlation issue.

If it starts with the CPS unplugged, you know it is the implausible / signal correlation issue that is the cause of the none start.

Jon.

Fixed #

Posted by James Eardley on August 3, 2011, 10:09 pm, in reply to "VW Passat 2.0 TDi PD BKP 2006 - Non start (with waveforms) code 16725 & 16705 #"
Message modified by board administrator August 4, 2011, 12:36 pm

After work was carried out

Before work was carried out

First of all thankyou all for your replies and efforts in helping me ESPECIALLY Dave Harney who came up with the goods and more thanks.

I have done the job and am pleased to say it is fixed.

The garage bought a new crank seal and reluctor ring that came in an housing that bolts to the block, from VW for £70 inc VAT.

I never got to use the tool, as I wasn't willing to pay for it, and the garage wouldn't and asked if I would change the parts without. Thanks for info provided.

I took the gearbox and sump off with the crank and cams pinned up, then obviously took the clutch and flywheel off and the reluctor ring was clearly located wrong. There is a hole in the reluctor ring that lines up with a mark on the housing and is held in line with a locking tool.

After removing the old housing. I fitted the new housing with crank seal, then tapped the reluctor ring onto the end of the crank making sure the locking tool still fitted and lined up.

I then put the car back together and she fired straight up

I have put the before and after waveforms up, I hope it will prove useful for someone else one day.

You can't see real good on the after work done waveform above (its clearer on scope) but there is a 120us difference between the first CAM 5V rise and the 7th CRANK tooth 5V volt rise after the missing tooth and these should line up perfectly according to the information Dave Harney posted.

The car started GREAT

But I only scoped cam and crank to have a known good trace and noticed this.

Would this bother you guys? It did me.

or

Do you think im going to deep into it because the scope is so powerful and I wouldn't normally know?

Thanks again

James

I wish I would have read about unplugging the crank sensor before I started the job It would have been good to try.

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