Diesel Diagnostics

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Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by Keith Geach on January 22, 2011, 9:06 am

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From the lack of understanding of basic diesel systems and therefore basic questions, I have come to the conculsion that nobody runs any training courses on Diesel Systems.
Come on BOSCH, DELPHI, FRANK MASSEY, JAMES DILLON, etc,
some of these edc systems are over 20 years old now, why have you trainers not produce any training courses?

How did WHICH MAGAZINE found it so easy to find ammunition?

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Posted by Kevin Apps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2589' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 22, 2011, 10:13 am, in reply to "DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES"
Kevin Apps

Hi Kieth
There are course,s out there, i know James does one and is part of his boot camp (see his web site). I,m also sure Frank does a course, but even if he does not, his laerning DVD,s will cover it.
I think the problem is lack of interest by many in the trade, most are just looking for silver bullet,s.
As an aside do you do a course, if not with your knowledge of diesels perhaps you should

because when i see you name on a thread i go straight to it.
All the Best.
Kev.

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Posted by kelly clarke <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1397' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 22, 2011, 4:10 pm, in reply to "Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES"
Kelly Clarke

Bosch do several diesel courses, VP pump, common rail and unit injector courses are all run at Denham. I shall be returning to do the common rail course aagin as it has been revamped to include more diagnostics instead of just the system overview.

Kelly

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Posted by Ian Baxter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1560' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 22, 2011, 8:36 pm, in reply to "Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES"
Ian Baxter

Snap-On even do a seminar for Diesel technology or something like that, I have been on it and every little helps!!!! As they say

Ian

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Ian
I,v been on most snap-on seminars

, and am going on the diesel one on the 1st of feb.
They are all very basic, and i only go for the food, a few beers and a chat with some mates.
Kev.
certificates are in the bin

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Posted by Pete Mutlow <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1569' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 22, 2011, 9:12 pm, in reply to "Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES"
Peter Mutlow

Kev,

...but the knowledge is retained forever...waiting to be divulged as a "silver bullet"

Regards

Pete M

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Posted by Peter Warman <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=Peter+Warman' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 23, 2011, 3:03 pm, in reply to "DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES"

Hi Keith

I have done quite a few courses, but I have found they usually give you a general insight into how systems work, but learning in a classroom (or a set of CD's) is miles away from every day problems that come through your door, under pressure to find the fault, lack of good info, scanners that don't give enough live data, no easy access to components, injectors that don't come out, customer breathing down your neck and worried about the cost etc etc. The classroom will never reflect the real world, the CD's and classroom always have a shiny 3 year old Passat, not a crappy 10 year old non starting Peugeot HDi to demo on

Just have a look at some of the .pdf files in the link below, how is it possible for technicians to take in ALL these different systems and be expected to know how to repair or diagnose them first time and these are just Delphi systems

http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto/powertrain/diesel/

That's why I think we need to cut some members a bit of slack, even I struggle with diesel systems, and probably to old to learn most of the new stuff coming along and retain it

. I would like to think that members like yourself can be mentors rather than put downers

I am just wondering how far the designers can push
engine technology before you have to have a degree from NASA to fix them

Peter

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Posted by Mark Mcgrath <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2806' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 23, 2011, 3:27 pm, in reply to "Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES"
Mark McGrath

Peter i think your post hits it on the nail
seem to spend more time learning and researching than repairing vehicles
your statement " I think we need to cut some members a bit of slack, even I struggle with diesel systems, and probably to old to learn most of the new stuff coming along and retain it . I would like to think that members like yourself can be mentors rather than put downers "
is more relevant than ever

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Hi Mark

Diesel diagnostics can be a bit daunting especially with non starts and certain loss of power situations

What would be good, and I am not sure if there are any already out there, is to have someone who works or mentors in diesel systems to create some Flow Charts (from real life/workshop experience) for different scenarios as mentioned above. The biggest problem is knowing where to start, as we know codes help but that's only the beginning

Many techs sometimes start their diagnostic process to far down the line while ignoring the basics. Some logical flow charts related to the faults would be excellent. I see Delphi has a tool now for analysing Diesel fuel to see if it is contaminated in any way with say petrol, perhaps this should be a first step tool now when dealing with diesel faults (think you can see where I am coming from)

So come on Keith, Frank and James how about some decent system flow charts for correct diagnostic procedure in bulletins or books, I would be willing to pay for them

I am not talking "Silver Bullet" bulletins, but to give diagnostic guidance and thought process to your problem (in the right order), will also help you learn and understand the systems as you go

And if you are still having problems, then post on UKAT

, but we will at least know you have covered the basics

Peter

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by DAVE McCALL <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5415' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 24, 2011, 4:59 pm, in reply to "Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"

DCM Technical services run an EDC one day course that can be delivered any where in the country if there is the demand give me a ring on 07802 529779 or email dc@airconauto.co.uk for more details Dave McCall

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by Sean Mc Gettigan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5291' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 24, 2011, 5:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"
Sean McGettigan

Why bother with courses when you can just chance you arm and fit a few bits after a quick scan. If that doesn't work then scan the internet for 'common faults' because as we know cars only have common faults. If that doesnt work and the customer has any money left then just post on an internet forum and ask someone who has invested heavily in training,equipment etc to tell you whats wrong with the car for free so that you can charge your customer for the repair and then everyones happy!

Well apart from the guy who has invested in training and gets nothing from the job. He's usually the guy down the road who everyone complains about as being too expensive to use.

There are loads of garages and scan tool jockies who admit to knowing nothing about diesels but still take money to plug in and have a guess.

It seems to be some kind of pride thing in this trade that people cant be honest with their customer and say
'I dont know whats wrong with it but I can recommend a specialist who will be able to tell you whats wrong. Its too expensive to guess and start fitting parts on this system'

If you go to a docter for a problem and he/she refers you to a specialist its not seen as a failure on their behalf and people are happier to receive 'specialist' help.

Answers on a postcard to :
Dont do training
Too busy
Costs too much
Have to fix it myself at any cost to the customer

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by mike fleet <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1641' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 24, 2011, 9:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"
Mike Fleet

sean
your discription is spot on, i run mobile diagnostics and have done for 20 years constantly researching and trying to keep up with modern technology,the times i have been called into various estabilishments after they have failed to correcty diagnose faults.when we spent time diagnosing faults correctly sometimes very simple ones these establishments then charge customers who think they have done the work so creating a false customer image of a competent establishment.i am not having a pop at any garages who do a good job but the market place is getting full of code read technician
test and dont guess.you cant fix what you dont understand.cheers mike fleet

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by Bryan Smith <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5330' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 25, 2011, 12:47 am, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"
Bryan Smith

I have to agree with nearly all the comments on this thread except that I do use the net for nearly all my research/training. There is lots of excellent info, if you take the time to sort the wheat as it were. I recently read something that stated that the internet was the biggest thing since the printing press and I think this sums it up. With regards to scan and go merchants, I live in a small market town with about 10 garages/car repairers. I remember a time when all garages, inc main dealers had a "crypton" type tuner/scope. I now guess that in this area only two out of those ten own a scope. The dealers seem to have only one basic scanner for "other" makes. It has been stated on here many times that you "only get out, what you put in". I suppose I am only trying to say that the weak will fall (and I don't consider myself very strong, but my career is nearing the end).
Regards,
Bryan.

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by martin young <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2736' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 25, 2011, 8:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"
Martin Young

why dont you do a course keith?
your a diesel guru

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by keith geach <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5403' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 26, 2011, 1:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"

Done a few courses in my time and still willing do basic courses, or did you mean run a course Martin?
(I only know 40 percent of what I want to know now,just over 1 percent a year, so not qualified)

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by keith geach <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5403' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on January 29, 2011, 8:49 am, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"

Ok, yes Bosch, Delphi, Frank Massey and James Dillon do courses as do others.
Yes I have done all Bosch diesel courses, some 2 or 3 times over the years as they do evolve.
Spent lots of time at Delphi when doing foundation degree course in diesel technology
Have been to ADS (Frank Massey) and discovered a completely different approach to diagnostics.
James Dillon, not been to any of his as yet.

Been in diesels since 12 years old and still say that we will all need to specialise in areas of technology (or at least my brain is not capable of covering all systems on all vehicles).

Where do I start when a vehicle arrives?
Assessment of the vehicle, is it worth repairing and do I want to work on it?
Where has it been before it has arrived at my door, and what has been carried out?
(use this as a guide and not as fact and also check over this work)
We all have 5 senses if we are lucky, use them.
Look at the whole vehicle.
Listen to the vehicle.
Smell the vehicle.
Touch and taste is also bought into it (more on that later).

Do I need to plug in a serial tool now?

If required take UP FRONT PAYMENT for parts before fitment.

Use ONLY KNOWN QUALITY COMPONENTS.

(May add to this later.)

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by Alan Kane <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5535' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 5, 2011, 8:20 am, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"

Keith – From the lack of understanding of basic diesel systems and therefore basic questions, I have come to the conculsion that nobody runs any training courses on Diesel Systems……………….How did WHICH MAGAZINE found it so easy to find ammunition?

I think that’s a point well made Keith. It doesn’t just apply to diesel systems but to all. We all regularly see examples of mechanics working on systems that they are not equipped for. Its wrong but as long as people get away with it its not going to change and the trade will not improve its perceived lack of professionalism. Its not a lack of available training but a lack of desire to learn on the part of some people.

Peter - That's why I think we need to cut some members a bit of slack, even I struggle with diesel systems, and probably to old to learn most of the new stuff coming along and retain it . I would like to think that members like yourself can be mentors rather than put downers

I would agree on the idea of mentors Peter but it not possible to help people who won’t make an effort to help themselves. I often read a post here that lacks enough detail to help, so don’t bother. I have in the past gone to the trouble of spending time to PDF some info/data and email it to someone who doesn’t even reply.
I would suggest that the early UKAT archives should be required reading for every member to show what can be achieved with some quality posting and a bit of effort.

What would be good, and I am not sure if there are any already out there, is to have someone who works or mentors in diesel systems to create some Flow Charts (from real life/workshop experience) for different scenarios as mentioned above. The biggest problem is knowing where to start, as we know codes help but that's only the beginning

I don’t think flow charts are the way forward. Any I have seen, usually in factory manuals, seem to be designed to guide a tech who is suffering a lack of understanding of the system. With good knowledge of the system being worked on there is no need for a flow chart.

I am not talking "Silver Bullet" bulletins, but to give diagnostic guidance and thought process to your problem (in the right order), will also help you learn and understand the systems as you go

I love silver bullets. They definitely have a place but only in conjunction with the required knowledge to shoot them properly. An insight from someone with good product knowledge can be very helpful and if discussed can lead to a learning experience as well. They also save time in the workshop and so can be very profitable.

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Posted by Jean Massey <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2802' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 9, 2011, 9:11 am, in reply to "Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES"

There are lots of training courses out there on Common Rail, we ran 19 courses in 2010 and all were well attended. Keith knows the value of continuous investment in knowledge, that’s why he is one of the best and most successful diesel specialists in the UK.I think if you ask all the finalists in the Top Technician competition how they keep up to date with the latest technology the answer will be through continuous training.
I know from personal experience that even the most experienced past winners and finalists continue to attend training courses.
There is also a wealth of information both on the internet and in written articles,.

In contrast Frank is delivering a course in Moscow and some delegates have travelled from as far away as Kazakhstan and Siberia, they have to be able to diagnos and repair vehicles as they don’t have the luxury of returning parts to their suppliers or technical forums.

To stay in business you have to keep up to date with technology.

Jean

Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 9, 2011, 1:20 pm, in reply to "Re: DIESEL ENGINED VEHICLES"
Mark Carter

Hi,
As far as Jean's comment goes,

>>>To stay in business you have to keep up to date with technology.<<<

I can not agree more, the question is when is the motor trade going to start doing it ?

regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 9, 2011, 6:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"

Sean’s comment about the Doctor is a good one.

As a General Practitioner, the doctor’s role is to deal with most day to day conditions & refer the complex problems to the appropriate specialist. The GP feels no shame that he can't deal with the patient directly, as he understands the limits of his training & he will only treat conditions that he is qualified to treat.

We couldn’t hope to survive in our trade if we turned away anything that we hadn’t encountered before, or taken relevant training on, but we do have a responsibility to make sure that we know when to stand back & seek more specialised help, or even refer the customer directly to someone who has the necessary experience.

The frightening thing is that too many mechanics are willing to gamble on solutions, without any alarm bells ringing. They are usually gambling with the customer’s money & often the odds are not that good. I think it was a Clint Eastwood line… “A mans got to know his limitations!” blimey if ever there was a more appropriate line!

I recently rang Martin Wainwright about an old Diesel Renault Master (non common rail). I knew I was out of my depth in respect of my knowledge of the operation of the pump, but I also knew that I was dealing with an “injection advance” type fault. I checked the basics & sent the pump to our trusted diesel specialist & let them work their magic. We became mere “fitters” in this example, but the customer was happy that it was turned around promptly & without unnecessary costs. (He was insistent that he needed new injectors)

As I mentioned in another thread, we are all learning on the job every day & we have to balance the learning/earning ratio, so that we earn a crust & treat the customer fairly.

One of the most important things for a mechanic to learn is, where the gaps in his knowledge are! Then go fill them!!

Cheers all

Dave

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by Tom Williams <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5478' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 17, 2011, 11:17 am, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"
Tom Williams

The major difference between us and the medical profession is that, for the most part, doctors get paid for their time whether the patient survives or not. The other thing to remember is that if a GP refers a patient, the consultant is not likely to 'steal' his customer.

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by Sean Mc Gettigan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5291' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 17, 2011, 12:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"
Sean McGettigan

Hi Tom

'the consultant is not likely to 'steal' his customer.'

By specialist I meant someone who is dedicated to diagnostics only. There is usually at least one in most areas. That way eveyone's happy.

Regards
Sean

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by keith geach <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5403' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 17, 2011, 1:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"
Keith Geach

Tom
Find someone to trust, the good ones do not need to steal work.

Afraid of customer being stolen,still does not excuse taking on work which the workshop is not qualified or capable of carrying out.

Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on February 17, 2011, 8:29 pm, in reply to "Re: Diesel engine vehicles - Lack of understanding #"
Mark Carter

Hi all,

For what its worth, I totally agree with Keith.

Most people seem to blame the VM's for the technology found in the modern vehicle, but most of it is driven by the emission regs (current and up-coming)

Please don't take on work that you have no idea on, the result is that the whole independent sector gets tarred with the same brush (which is one of incompetence) which is not true.

The GP example is a good one, the people that specialise in diagnostics generally do not want to get involved in oil and filter charges (as an example).

The bottom line seems to be, Do what you are good at (and make money at it!!)

learn the specialist bits (via proper training) or leave them to the people that have learn and invested in the relevant areas.

Regards Mark.

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

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