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Query about pattern id and manufacturer Posted by Stuart on September 24, 2024, 3:39 pm A creamware plate with greek neo classical pattern and impressed ‘H’ on back. The greek revival theme as well as creamware was popular 1800-20 but the earliest ‘H’ trade mark from the Staffordshire potteries used was 1844-50 by Hatchwood. Some attribution has been made in the past to Herculaneum factory,Liverpool 1805 but the two books i reference dont list an impressed H mark to them. The punlication was 2005 and im unsure if new information has since been discovered. It does have vermicule decoration and this shape is the same 8 lobbed bowl dimension as other Herculaneum creamware. Any advice is greatly appreciated, thanks stu

Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer Posted by Len on September 24, 2024, 9:16 pm, in reply to "Query about pattern id and manufacturer" Hi Stuart. Interesting plate. We have three versions of this pattern in our database, known as Zeus in his Chariot. One is by Spode, probably the best known maker of this series of Greek patterns. The others are maker unknown - one does have the impressed H as your plate does, the other unmarked but with the three stars surrounding Zeus, which the other versions don't have. None of these have the vermicular surround your example does, but printed flowers as in the Spode version. There is a plate like yours (except for the vermicelli) illustrated in Friends of Blue Bulletin #135 from April 2007 - same stars, same impressed H - and it is tentatively attributed to the Glamorgan Pottery in Swansea. Morton Nance in his book on Swansea said the impressed H is a mark from that pottery, and Helen Hallesey shows two plates in her book on the Glamorgan Pottery that have an impressed H mark in addition to the Baker, Bevans & Irwin maker's mark. So at the very least Swansea is a possibility though I'm not sure that's a firm attribution.

Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer Posted by Stuart on September 25, 2024, 8:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer" Found a few more sales that have happened over the years (all state impressed ‘H’). Im wondering if new jnfo has come to light since the book and these know something i dont or if its dealer fever. I need to research more about the glamorgan pottery and the records if factory trade marks i think Thanks again Stu

Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer Posted by Stuart on September 25, 2024, 7:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer" Thanks for this Len, much appreciated and definitely a pottery to consider. The more i research this, it seems to become more complicated lol. Im not sure if youll have time to read the attached from the most recent book on herculaneum by peter hyland in 2005. Most reasons he gives for debunking herculaneum is regarding the blue platter illustrated and the pattern name of charioteers. I agree with him.. it probably is from staffordshire, but theres no mention of a red one. This red 8 lobbed bowl is the same size as other herc creamware bowls. And typical herc style ive noticed how they put their twist on already existing patterns they copied from other factorys (e.g. kings ptn from derby). I have other vermicule from them on cache pots and tableware. The two blips here are the impressed ‘H’ not known as herc and the pattern named ‘charioteers’ wont be zeus in a chariot i dont think. But everything else fits. In his earlier book Prof Alan Smith says he thinks the wares were made at herc yet he or hyland has never found a stamped one. What if the reason for this is because the ‘H’ impression has for whatever reason not been known as belonging to herc. Afterall they dud an impressed liverbird,they also done an impressed L. I suppose the question is.. how was the info in the books on the factory marks obtained,trade marks,factory records or just photos taken from marked pieces. Just as im thinking of it being unlikely, this auction picture from Christies 2008 pops up in a google search (3 years after hylands book). I cant prove it is but cant prove its not maybe until more information is discovered. Thanks

Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer Posted by Len on September 26, 2024, 2:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer" Hi again Stuart. Yeah, I don't know what to think about Christie's attributing that Greek comport to Herculaneum. What was their source for that information, or were they just taking their best guess? Can't recall an impressed H ever being attributed to that factory, we have 51 Herculaneum marks in the database and the only impressed marks we have are either Herculaneum in full (earlier) or the Liver Bird mark in about the 1830s. Doesn't mean it couldn't be, of course, but just no proof one way or the other.

Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer Posted by Stuart on September 26, 2024, 7:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Query about pattern id and manufacturer" Hi Len, thanks for your reply. I agree, its quite difficult to conclusively say yes. Bug very tempting when evidence is viewed. I really appreciate you taking time to review my post and give your opinion. Its nice to speak to someone who has the same passion and enthusiasm. Best wishes Stuart

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