on 12/16/2024, 1:43 pm, in reply to "Re: From 2017-18: The Noir Top 25 Poll--A Methodology for a Semi-Reluctant Conscript"
Posted by Solomon on 12/31/2017, 4:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Noir Top 25: Results of A Revision(ist) Effort"
Here's more than you asked for. I used Maltin's scale and I didn't look at my earlier designations of E, VG and G. A quick look afterward suggests to me a pretty high level of consistency, or I'm pretty set in my thinking! These ratings of mine are done in a flash, so to speak, without thought.
If you want to create tiers, be my guest. However, I've eyeballed the results and what I see is that within those marked E, I assigned predominantly 3.5 ratings. Only a few are either 4 or 3. So there's little new coming out of me at this time.
E 1 Out of the Past Tourneur 4*
E 2 Criss Cross Siodmak 3.5*
E 3 Double Indemnity Wilder 4*
E 4 The Asphalt Jungle Huston 4*
E 5 The Killers Siodmak 4*
VG 6 Gun Crazy Lewis 3.5*
E 7 The Maltese Falcon Huston 4*
E 8 Touch of Evil Welles 4*
E 9 D.O.A. Mate 3.5*
E 10 The Killing Kubrick 3.5*
E 11 The Big Sleep Hawks 4*
G 12 In A Lonely Place Ray 3*
E 13 Nightmare Alley Goulding 4*
E 14 Night and the City Dassin 3.5*
E 15 Kiss Me Deadly Aldrich 3.5*
E 16 Raw Deal Mann 3.5*
VG17 Detour Ulmer 3*
E 18 The Narrow Margin Fleischer 3.5*
VG 19 The Set-up Wise 3*
VG 20 The Big Heat Lang 3*
VG 21 Scarlet Street Lang 3*
E 22 Born To Kill Wise 3*
VG 23 Postman Always Rings Twice Garnett 3.5*
E 24 Murder, My Sweet Dmytryk 3.5*
E 25 Sunset Boulevard Wilder 4*
No Film Director Type Total T5 T10 T15 T20 T25 HM Tot
E 26 Laura Preminger 3*
E 27 Strange Love of Martha Ivers Milestone 3.5*
E 28 Mildred Pierce Curtiz 3.5*
VG 29 Ace In The Hole Wilder 3*
E 30 The Big Combo Lewis 3.5*
E 31 Gilda 3.5*
G 32 Caged Cromwell 2.5*
E 33 Hollow Triumph Sekely 3.5*
E 33 Strangers On A Train Hitchcock 4*
E 35 T-Men Mann 3.5*
VG 35 Pickup On South Street Fuller 3*
G 37 Try And Get Me Endfield 3*
VG 38 Ride The Pink Horse Montgomery 3.5*
E 39 The Dark Corner Hathaway 3.5*
E 40 White Heat Walsh gangster 4*
G 41 Pitfall de Toth triangle 3.5*
E 42 Act of Violence Zinneman 3*
VG 42 Brute Force Dassin 3*
E 44 Vertigo Hitchcock 4*
E 45 He Walked By Night Werker 3.5*
VG 46 Dead Reckoning Cromwell 3.5*
G 46 The Chase Ripley 3.5*
E 46 Sweet Smell of Success Mackendrick 3.5*
E 49 Phantom Lady Siodmak 3.5*
VG 50 Key Largo Huston 3*
No Film Total HM Tot Director Type
E 51 The Third Man 4*
G 52 They Live By Night 3*
VG 52 Shield For Murder 3*
E 54 Fallen Angel 3*
E 54 Kiss of Death 3.5*
E 56 Odds Against Tomorrow 4*
E 56 High Sierra 3*
E 58 Shadow Of A Doubt 4*
E 58 Crime Wave 3*
E 60 Human Desire 3.5*
VG 60 Force of Evil 3*
E 62 Sudden Fear 3*
E 63 Armored Car Robbery 3*
E 64 Lady From Shanghai 3*
E 64 Border Incident 3.5*
E 66 On Dangerous Ground 3.5*
E 66 Body and Soul 3*
G 66 Highway 301 3*
VG 69 Where The Sidewalk Ends 3*
E 70 Cry of the City 3.5*
E 70 This Gun For Hire 3.5*
E 70 99 River Street 3.5*
E 73 Leave Her To Heaven 3.5*
VG 73 Somewhere In The Night 3*
E 73 The Breaking Point 3*
VG 76 Night Editor 3*
E 76 On The Waterfront 4*
E 76 Chinatown 4*
VG 76 The City That Never Sleeps 3*
E 76 Night of the Hunter 4*
E 76 The Manchurian Candidate 4*
VG 82 The Woman In the Window 3*
VG 83 Woman On The Run 3*
E 83 Dark Passage 3.5*
G 85 No Way Out 2.5*
G 85 The Suspect 2.5*
E 87 Too Late For Tears 3.5*
E 87 Black Angel 3.5*
E 89 Crossfire 3.5*
VG 90 Road House 3*
E 90 Nora Prentiss 3.5*
E 90 The Unsuspected 3.5*
E 93 Champion 4*
E 93 Kansas City Confidential 3.5*
VG 93 Shakedown 3*
VG 93 The Damned Don’t Cry 3.5*
Pts Studio Title Director
G 15 for Shoot The Piano Player Truffaut 3*
G 15 Fox Plunder Road Cornfield 3*
VG 15 MGM Rogue Cop Rowland 3*
VG 15 Par Lost Weekend Wilder 3.5*
VG 15 RKO Cry Danger Parrish 3*
VG 15 RKO His Kind of Woman Farrow 3*
E 15 UA Crooked Way Florey 3.5*
G 15 WB Rope Hitchcock 2.5*
VG 15 WB Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye Douglas 3*
VG 15 WB New York Confidential Rouse 3*
G 15 WB Wrong Man Hitchcock 3.5*
VG 13 Col Scandal Sheet Karlson 3.5*
E 13 Par Big Clock Farrow 4*
E 12 Col Reckless Moment Ophuls 3.5*
VG 12 RKO Sniper Dmytryk 3*
E 12 UA Prowler Losey 3.5*
VG 11 Fox House of Strangers Mankiewicz 3*
VG 11 Par Alias Nick Beal Farrow 3*
E 10 Col 711 Ocean Drive Newman 3.5*
E 10 Col M (1951) Losey 3.5*
VG 10 FC Blonde Ice Bernhard 3*
E 10 for Dear Murderer Crabtree 3*
G 10 Par Fear In The Night Shane 2.5*
G 10 Univ Dark Mirror Siodmak 2.5*
G 10 Univ Blast of Silence Baron 3*
E 7 Fox Street With No Name Keighley 3.5*
E 7 UA Impact Lubin 3.5*
E 6 Fox Thieves Highway Dassin 3*
G 6 Rep Moonrise Borzage 2.5*
VG 6 RKO Desperate Mann 3*
E 6 RKO Notorious Hitchcock 3.5*
G 5 Avco Farewell, My Lovely Richards 3*
VG 5 Col Framed Wallace 3*
E 5 Col Pushover Quine 3.5*
E 5 Par Desert Fury Allen 3.5*
VG 5 Par Night Has A Thousand Eyes Farrow 3*
E 5 Par Sorry, Wrong Number Litvak 4*
E 5 RKO Roadblock Daniels 3.5*
G 5 UA Black Tuesday Fregonese 2.5*
E 5 WB Pursued Wallace 3.5*
G 5 WB Detective Story Wyler 3*
E 4 Par Blue Dahlia Marshall 4*
E 3 RKO Devil Thumbs A Ride Feist 3.5*
E 3 RKO Threat Feist 3.5*
E 2 Col Lineup Siegel 3.5*
E 2 Col Underworld USA Fuller 3.5*
E 2 Eagle Repeat Performance Werker 3.5*
E 2 MGM Side Street Mann 3.5*
G 2 Mon Decoy Bernhard 2.5*
VG 2 PRC Railroaded Mann 3*
E 1 AA Gangster Wiles 3.5*
G 1 AA Revolt In The Big House Springsteen 2.5*
G 1 Col Whistler Castle 3*
VG 1 Eagle Amazing Mr. X Vorhaus 3*
G 1 FC Guilty Bystander Lerner 2.5*
E 1 for Bob le Flambeur Melville 4*
E 1 Fox I Wake Up Screaming Humberstone 3*
G 1 Fox Shanghai Gesture von Sternberg 3*
G 1 IA Strange Woman Ulmer 3*
E 1 MGM Reign of Terror Mann 4*
E 1 MGM Tension Berry 3.5*
E 1 Mon When Strangers Marry Castle 3.5*
G 1 Par Glass Key Heisler 3*
G 1 Par Appointment With Danger Allen 3*
VG 1 RKO Big Steal Siegel 3*
E 1 RKO Cat People Tourneur 3.5*
E 1 RKO Locket Brahm 4*
E 1 RKO Stranger Welles 4*
E 1 RKO They Wont Believe Me Pichel 4*
G 1 RKO Window Tetzlaff 3*
E 1 RKO Angel Face Preminger 3.5*
G 1 RKO Clash By Night Lang 2.5*
VG 1 RKO Racket Cromwell 3*
E 1 RKO Slightly Scarlet Dwan 3.5*
VG 1 RKO Split Second Grainger 3.5*
VG 1 RKO Union Station Mate 3.5*
1 UA Chicago Calling Reinhardt 3*
VG 1 UA He Ran All The Way Berry 3*
1 UA Wicked Woman Rouse 3*
VG 1 Univ Larceny Sherman,G. 2.5*
E 1 Univ Naked City Dassin 3*
VG 1 WB Conflict Bernhardt 3*
E 1 WB Mask of Dimitrios Negulesco 3.5*
E 1 WB Nobody Lives Forever Negulesco 3*
G 1 WB Cry In The Night Tuttle 2.5*
G 1 WB Suddenly Allen 2.5*
G 1 WB Tomorrow Is Another Day Feist 3*
1 WB Body Heat Kasdan 4*
From that, we collated/correlated the data and struck back with some interesting results that brought us a Top 25 list culled from our analysis/dissection of the patterns in Solomon's list--which, at the bottom of this post, we will compare with the revised Top 25 list for the very first time...
...also contained here (third graf) is a succinct explanation of the "revision" methodology.
Re: High Maltin ratings but not in Blackboard's top echelon
Posted by Don Malcolm on 12/31/2017, 9:44 pm, in reply to "Re: High Maltin ratings but not in Blackboard's top echelon"
Actually, Leonard's rankings do change. Not with high frequency, and not often dramatically--but they do change.
The group decided that it wanted to create its own ranking, which ordered things based on our collective input in a particular snapshot in time. The purpose was to see how a collective would rank them, in order. That seemed to be something that folks enjoyed doing, and were curious to see the result. Your position here that any rating from 3/4 up is essentially all the same....if that is the case, why do you and Leonard bother with the 3.5 and 4 designations?
To clarify, we didn't add or drop names in the revision. We asked folks to revisit the rankings from an outside vantage point to see what would change. The idea was to see if there'd be any pattern in what changed. It turned out there was a pattern--despite significantly different approaches to the revision by the participants.
A cross-sorting of your two ranking methods suggests that your results were somewhat less consistent than what your eyeballs were telling you:
E: 4.0 {27} (9,10, 8)
E: 3.5 {58} (8, 25, 25)
VG: 3.5 {10} (3, 3, 4)
G; 3.5 {2} (0, 2, 0)
E: 3.0 {17} (1, 11, 5)
VG: 3.0 {33} (3, 14, 18)
G: 3.0 {15} (1, 3, 11)
VG: 2.5 {1} (0, 0, 1)
G: 2.5 {14} (0, 3, 11)
E: 26% 4.0, 57% 3.5, 17% 3.0
VG: 0% 4.0, 23% 3.5, 75% 3.0, 2% 2.5
G: 0% 4.0, 6% 3.5, 48% 3.0, 46% 2.5
The distributions in the parentheses (three numbers separated by commas) show the number of films in each matched group from the Top 25 films in the 2005 poll, the films from 26-99, and from 100 up).
In 3.5 region up your cross-reference shows 18 additional films below the films in the Top 25 that are considered to be at the same quality level. You have 18 of the 2005 Top 25 as "excellent", with a numerical range mostly 3.5 or 4.0. But you also have 84 more films listed as excellent spread across three numerical grades: 21% 4.0, 60% 3.5, and 19% 3.0).
The more intriguing sort is to see these "excellent films" in a list, cross-referenced to the "rating" data that I've compiled as part of the larger noir list. We can then see the distribution of 90+, 85-89, and 84 and lower films as they exist in your "excellent" listings. If the two different ranking methods mesh reasonably well, there should be a higher percentage of 90+ films in the 4.0 group than in the 3.5, and a higher percentage of 90+ films in the 3.5 than in the 3.0. Such a result would suggest that there might just be some meaning and purpose to a more granular evaluation approach.
The full list is below, but the numbers do indeed show a linear correlation:
E/4.0 (27) 17 90+ (63%) 8/9 from Top 25, 8/10 from 26-99, 1/8 from 100+
E/3.5 (58) 20 90+ (34%) 6/8 from Top 25, 7/25 from 26-99, 7/25 from 100+
E/3.0 (17) 2 90+ (12%) 0/1 from Top 25, 2/11 from 26-99, 0/5 from 100+
Overall "E"/90+ correlation: 14/18 from Top 25, 17/46 from 26-99, 8/38 from 100+
So your gradations within "excellent," seemingly random, do actually tie into the more granular "value" data and behave in a descending linear pattern.
The complete "excellent" list, spread across the three numerical values:
SORTED BY CATEGORY, THEN NUMBER
E/4.0 {27}
--->Out of the Past, Double Indemnity, The Asphalt Jungle, The Killers, The Maltese Falcon, Touch of Evil, The Big Sleep, Nightmare Alley, Sunset Boulevard (9)
--->Strangers On A Train, White Heat, Vertigo, The Third Man, Odds Against Tomorrow, Chinatown, The Manchurian Candidate, Night of the Hunter, On The Waterfront, Champion (10)
--->The Big Clock, Sorry Wrong Number, The Blue Dahlia, Bob le Flambeur, The Locket, Reign of Terror, The Stranger, They Won't Believe Me (8)
E/3.5 {58}
--->Criss Cross, D.O.A., The Killing, Night and the City, Kiss Me Deadly, Raw Deal, The Narrow Margin, Murder, My Sweet (8)
--->The Strange Love of Martha Ivers, Mildred Pierce, The Big Combo, Gilda, Hollow Triumph, The Dark Corner, He Walked By Night, Sweet Smell of Success, Phantom Lady, Kiss of Death, Shadow Of A Doubt, Border Incident, Lady From Shanghai, On Dangerous Ground, 99 River Street, Cry of the City, This Gun For Hire, Leave Her To Heaven, Dark Passage, Black Angel, Too Late For Tears, Crossfire, Nora Prentiss, The Unsuspected, Kansas City Confidential (25)
--->The Crooked Way, The Prowler, The Reckless Moment, 711 Ocean Drive, M (1951), Impact, The Street With No Name, Notorious, Desert Fury, Pursued, Pushover, Roadblock, The Devil Thumbs A Ride, The Threat, The Lineup, Repeat Performance, Side Street, Underworld USA, Angel Face, Cat People, The Gangster, The Mask of Dimitrios, Slightly Scarlet, Tension, When Strangers Marry (25)
E/3.0 {17}
--->Born To Kill (1)
--->Laura, T-Men, Act of Violence, Fallen Angel, High Sierra, Crime Wave, Human Desire, Sudden Fear, Armored Car Robbery, Body and Soul, The Breaking Point (11)
--->Dear Murderer, Thieves' Highway, I Wake Up Screaming, Naked City, Nobody Lives Forever (5)
The top list is what would seem to be the closest thing to a ballot that you might have submitted, given that it has 27 titles on it. There are only two films there that don't have an 85 or higher score in my "value" system: THE BLUE DAHLIA and REIGN OF TERROR. If those come off the list, that makes 25. And it's a pretty damned good list. Too bad you don't think it's worth the time to order it into the five tiers... :-)
--The top list, as referenced, which is all the titles in the "E/4.0" phase minus THE BLUE DAHLIA and REIGN OF TERROR, creates an idiosyncratic but intriguing list that would not have been out of place in the original poll. For our purposes, we'll compare it to the revised Top 25 list from 2015. The films on the "E/4.0" list that are also on the revised Top 25 list are shown in bold:
--->Out of the Past, Double Indemnity, The Asphalt Jungle, The Killers, The Maltese Falcon, Touch of Evil, The Big Sleep, Nightmare Alley, Sunset Boulevard (9) CORRELATION: 100%
--->Strangers On A Train, White Heat, Vertigo, The Third Man, Odds Against Tomorrow, Chinatown, The Manchurian Candidate, Night of the Hunter, On The Waterfront, Champion (10) CORRELATION: 10%
--->The Big Clock, Sorry Wrong Number, Bob le flambeur, The Locket, The Stranger, They Won't Believe Me (8) CORRELATION: 0%
A total of ten films on this list were also on the revised Top 25 results (overall 40% correlation). Note, however, that in the E/3.5 "top echelon" above, seven of the eight films listed there are also in the revised Noir Top 25.
So, a second-order correlation effort identified a strong tendency amongst serious aficionados of (American) film noir to create a significant consensus (16 out of 25 slots, or 64%) of the very best films. For ease of reference, here are those 16 consensus Top 25 picks:
Out of the Past, Double Indemnity, The Asphalt Jungle, The Killers, The Maltese Falcon, Touch of Evil, The Big Sleep, Nightmare Alley, Sunset Blvd., Criss Cross, D.O.A., The Killing, Night and the City, Kiss Me Deadly, Raw Deal, The Narrow Margin
Those who've read this far are encouraged to respond with a list of any films from this group of 16 that you are convinced aren't in the Top 25.
Responses