on 12/16/2024, 1:41 pm, in reply to "Re: From 2017-18: The Noir Top 25 Poll--Getting Past the "We Can't Get Granular" objection..."
Re: Noir Top 25: Results of A Revision(ist) Effort
Posted by Don Malcolm on 12/30/2017, 10:14 am, in reply to "Re: Noir Top 25: Results of A Revision(ist) Effort"
Yes, it was good that you took a bit of a stab at the question related to the two groups of five--and it was very interesting that the critiques of POSTMAN did specify aspects of the film that very likely cause it to be rated lower, both by your method and by the combined results of my "grading system."
For purposes of going deeper into this, I think it's the question of determining the generic dramatic greatness of a film from the attributes that contribute to a profound sense of catharsis in the synthesis of action, character and theme. Noir skews the emotional landscape of film as it attempts to be a more "brute actualization" of feelings/actions, and there might well be two litmus tests for "greatness," the first being how well the brutal arc escapes from the accepted ("acceptable"?) dramatic precepts, and the second being how well these two arcs are blended and integrated into the flow of the film's action.
As for the scale of an effort to more systematically analyze the films from (or closely attached to) the Noir Top 25 list, I think it might be more useful to proceed initially with smaller steps but on a larger scale. A close reading of the ten films in the Top 25 "switcheroo" AND a look at the seven films you've selected would produce an analysis demonstrating the range of similar dramatic strategies and the effects imposed on the films in order to structure the overall dramatic flow, which will show why two of those seven films are significantly more successful than the other five.
That effort could also produce some more robust guidelines for a more large-scale method for systematically applying quality precepts to films in general and noirs in particular.
But an effort that I think ought to be done first, one that could then be used iteratively as the more detailed approach is applied, would be to take those 102 films from the Top 25 list that you ID'd as "excellent" and see if a more cursory approach to separating them into three hierarchies or tiers of excellence can be done. It would of course be best to do so by setting aside any access to the actual results of the poll other than its having created the list of 102.
See if you can perform such an exercise, and report back as to what those lists look like, and what criteria you were able to apply, building from the ideas for such that you've already referenced. I think that could prove very interesting, both for the lists themselves and what the exercise might contribute for further, more detailed forays into this topic.
Re: Noir Top 25: Results of A Revision(ist) Effort
Posted by Solomon on 12/30/2017, 12:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Noir Top 25: Results of A Revision(ist) Effort"
I have no idea what I tagged as excellent. I don't save my comments here in a file.
But Mike was not quite able to get off so easily as that...thanks to the extra pages of backlog on the board that allow us to easily--well, somewhat easily--keep notable content available for those who want to explore our "back pages..."
Re: Noir Top 25: Results of A Revision(ist) Effort
Posted by Don Malcolm on 12/30/2017, 6:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Noir Top 25: Results of A Revision(ist) Effort"
Thanks to Dark Marc for adding those additional "back pages" to the Board before he disappeared into thin air...this has been lingering near the roll-off point for several months now...
The Blackboard Top 100
Posted by Solomon on 8/11/2015, 10:40 am
68.133.16.234
I'm going to label these top films with broader designations: E = excellent (same as outstanding and superior); VG = very good; G = good. These are my subjective judgments and the main criterion is what ChiBob suggests: what I like the most.
I find that I agree largely with those in the top 25 being E, but what I find is that there are many films I rate as E that I like a great deal that didn't make it into the top of the list.
I have a file with the following:
Film Director Type Total T5 T10 T15 T20 T25 HM Tot
E 1 Out of the Past Tourneur femme fatale 565 17 5 2 1 0 0 25
E 2 Criss Cross Siodmak heist 471 10 7 4 2 0 1 24
E 3 Double Indemnity Wilder femme fatale 455 13 2 4 3 0 0 22
E 4 The Asphalt Jungle Huston heist 411 7 9 3 1 0 1 21
E 5 The Killers Siodmak femme fatale 377 6 5 6 3 1 2 23
VG 6 Gun Crazy Lewis on the run 311 1 9 4 4 1 1 20
E 7 The Maltese Falcon Huston PI 302 4 4 6 2 2 2 20
E 8 Touch of Evil Welles bad cop 271 3 5 3 4 2 1 18
E 9 D.O.A. Mate payback 270 3 5 3 3 4 0 18
E 10 The Killing Kubrick heist 267 3 4 5 2 3 2 19
E 11 The Big Sleep Hawks PI 256 6 2 3 1 2 1 15
G 12 In A Lonely Place Ray show biz 248 4 2 2 7 1 3 19
E 13 Nightmare Alley Goulding con artist 245 5 1 4 3 2 0 15
E 14 Night and the City Dassin ambition 231 4 3 3 2 1 1 14
E 15 Kiss Me Deadly Aldrich PI 227 4 1 3 3 6 2 19
E 16 Raw Deal Mann on the run 207 3 2 4 1 4 2 16
VG17 Detour Ulmer femme fatale 206 4 2 1 4 1 6 18
E 18 The Narrow Margin Fleischer impersonator 202 2 6 0 2 2 2 14
VG 19 The Set-up Wise boxing 183 2 3 1 4 3 3 16
VG 20 The Big Heat Lang payback 180 2 2 3 1 6 5 19
VG 21 Scarlet Street Lang femme fatale 177 2 2 2 4 3 2 15
E 22 Born To Kill Wise psycho 147 1 2 1 4 5 2 15
VG 23 Postman Always Rings Twice Garnett femme fatale 141 2 3 1 1 1 1 9
E 24 Murder, My Sweet Dmytryk PI 138 1 2 3 2 1 3 12
E 25 Sunset Boulevard Wilder show biz 130 1 2 2 3 1 0 9
No Film Director Type Total T5 T10 T15 T20 T25 HM Tot
E 26 Laura Preminger whodunit 129 2 2 1 2 0 4 11
E 27 Strange Love of Martha Ivers Milestone coverup 105 0 2 3 1 2 0 8
E 28 Mildred Pierce Curtiz ambition 102 1 1 2 2 1 2 9
VG 29 Ace In The Hole Wilder newspaper 101 2 1 1 1 1 1 7
E 30 The Big Combo Lewis gangster 95 0 0 3 2 5 5 15
E 31 Gilda Vidor triangle 93 1 2 1 0 2 3 9
G 32 Caged Cromwell prison 90 2 0 2 1 0 0 5
E 33 Hollow Triumph Sekely impersonator 85 0 2 2 0 3 0 7
E 33 Strangers On A Train Hitchcock psycho 85 1 1 2 1 0 0 5
E 35 T-Men Mann undercover 82 0 1 1 2 5 2 11
VG 35 Pickup On South Street Fuller commie 82 1 1 1 1 2 2 8
G 37 Try And Get Me Endfield troubled vet 78 1 1 0 1 4 3 10
VG 38 Ride The Pink Horse Montgomery blackmail 77 0 2 2 0 1 2 7
E 39 The Dark Corner Hathaway PI 76 0 0 1 6 0 1 8
E 40 White Heat Walsh gangster 73 0 2 2 0 0 3 7
G 41 Pitfall de Toth triangle 62 0 1 2 1 0 2 6
E 42 Act of Violence Zinneman troubled vet 61 1 1 0 1 1 1 5
VG 42 Brute Force Dassin prison 61 0 2 0 2 0 1 5
E 44 Vertigo Hitchcock coverup 60 2 0 0 1 0 0 3
E 45 He Walked By Night Werker police proc 57 0 0 2 2 1 2 7
VG 46 Dead Reckoning Cromwell femme fatale 56 0 2 0 0 3 1 6
G 46 The Chase Ripley troubled vet 56 1 0 1 1 1 1 5
E 46 Sweet Smell of Success Mackendrick ambition 56 0 1 1 1 1 6 10
E 49 Phantom Lady Siodmak wrong man 52 0 1 0 2 2 2 7
VG 50 Key Largo Huston gangster 51 0 0 2 2 0 1 5
No Film Total HM Tot Director Type
E 51 The Third Man 50 0 Reed gangster
G 52 They Live By Night 47 2 Ray on the run
VG 52 Shield For Murder 47 2 OBrien/Koch bad cop
E 54 Fallen Angel 46 1 Preminger con artist
E 54 Kiss of Death 46 1 Hathaway gangster
E 56 Odds Against Tomorrow 45 0 Wise heist
E 56 High Sierra 45 0 Walsh gangster
E 58 Shadow Of A Dobut 41 1 Hitchcock psycho
E 58 Crime Wave 41 1 de Toth jailbird
E 60 Human Desire 40 0 Lang femme fatale
VG 60 Force of Evil 40 5 Polonsky gambling
E 62 Sudden Fear 36 1 Miller triangle
E 63 Armored Car Robbery 35 5 Fleischer heist
E 64 Lady From Shanghai 32 2 Welles femme fatale
E 64 Border Incident 32 2 Mann undercover
E 66 On Dangerous Ground 30 5 Ray payback
E 66 Body and Soul 30 0 Rossen boxing
G 66 Highway 301 30 0 Stone gangster
VG 69 Where The Sidewalk Ends 28 3 Preminger bad cop
E 70 Cry of the City 27 2 Siodmak gangster
E 70 This Gun For Hire 27 2 Tuttle hit man
E 70 99 River Street 27 2 Karlson wrong man
E 73 Leave Her To Heaven 26 1 Stahl femme fatale
VG 73 Somewhere In The Night 26 1 Mankiewicz amnesia
E 73 The Breaking Point 26 1 Curtiz high seas
VG 76 Night Editor 25 0 Levin bad cop
E 76 On The Waterfront 25 0 Kazan union
E 76 Chinatown 25 0 Polanski conspiracy
VG 76 The City That Never Sleeps 25 0 Auer triangle
E 76 Night of the Hunter 25 0 Laughton psycho
E 76 The Manchurian Candidate 25 0 Frankenheimer conspiracy
VG 82 The Woman In the Window 24 4 Lang coverup
VG 83 Woman On The Run 21 1 Foster psycho
E 83 Dark Passage 21 1 Daves plastic surgery
G 85 No Way Out 20 0 Mankiewicz racist
G 85 The Suspect 20 0 Siodmak period
E 87 Too Late For Tears 19 4 Haskin femme fatale
E 87 Black Angel 19 4 Neill boozer
E 89 Crossfire 18 3 Dmytryk racist
VG 90 Road House 17 2 Negulesco triangle
E 90 Nora Prentiss 17 2 Sherman V. impersonator
E 90 The Unsuspected 17 2 Curtiz psycho
E 93 Champion 16 1 Robson boxing
E 93 Kansas City Confidential 16 1 Karlson heist
VG 93 Shakedown 16 1 Pevney ambition
VG 93 The Damned Don’t Cry 16 1 Sherman V. femme fatale
Pts Studio Title Director
G 15 for Shoot The Piano Player Truffaut
G 15 Fox Plunder Road Cornfield
VG 15 MGM Rogue Cop Rowland
VG 15 Par Lost Weekend Wilder
VG 15 RKO Cry Danger Parrish
VG 15 RKO His Kind of Woman Farrow
E 15 UA Crooked Way Florey
G 15 WB Rope Hitchcock
VG 15 WB Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye Douglas
VG 15 WB New York Confidential Rouse
G 15 WB Wrong Man Hitchcock
VG 13 Col Scandal Sheet Karlson
E 13 Par Big Clock Farrow
E 12 Col Reckless Moment Ophuls
VG 12 RKO Sniper Dmytryk
E 12 UA Prowler Losey
VG 11 Fox House of Strangers Mankiewicz
VG 11 Par Alias Nick Beal Farrow
E 10 Col 711 Ocean Drive Newman
E 10 Col M (1951) Losey
VG 10 FC Blonde Ice Bernhard
E 10 for Dear Murderer Crabtree
G 10 Par Fear In The Night Shane
G 10 Univ Dark Mirror Siodmak
G 10 Univ Blast of Silence Baron
E 7 Fox Street With No Name Keighley
E 7 UA Impact Lubin
E 6 Fox Thieves Highway Dassin
G 6 Rep Moonrise Borzage
VG 6 RKO Desperate Mann
E 6 RKO Notorious Hitchcock
G 5 Avco Farewell, My Lovely Richards
VG 5 Col Framed Wallace
E 5 Col Pushover Quine
E 5 Par Desert Fury Allen
VG 5 Par Night Has A Thousand Eyes Farrow
E 5 Par Sorry, Wrong Number Litvak
E 5 RKO Roadblock Daniels
G 5 UA Black Tuesday Fregonese
E 5 WB Pursued Wallace
G 5 WB Detective Story Wyler
E 4 Par Blue Dahlia Marshall
E 3 RKO Devil Thumbs A Ride Feist
E 3 RKO Threat Feist
E 2 Col Lineup Siegel
E 2 Col Underworld USA Fuller
E 2 Eagle Repeat Performance Werker
E 2 MGM Side Street Mann
G 2 Mon Decoy Bernhard
VG 2 PRC Railroaded Mann
E 1 AA Gangster Wiles
G 1 AA Revolt In The Big House Springsteen
G 1 Col Whistler Castle
VG 1 Eagle Amazing Mr. X Vorhaus
G 1 FC Guilty Bystander Lerner
E 1 for Bob le Flambeur Melville
E 1 Fox I Wake Up Screaming Humberstone
G 1 Fox Shanghai Gesture von Sternberg
G 1 IA Strange Woman Ulmer
E 1 MGM Reign of Terror Mann
E 1 MGM Tension Berry
E 1 Mon When Strangers Marry Castle
G 1 Par Glass Key Heisler
G 1 Par Appointment With Danger Allen
VG 1 RKO Big Steal Siegel
E 1 RKO Cat People Tourneur
E 1 RKO Locket Brahm
E 1 RKO Stranger Welles
E 1 RKO They Wont Believe Me Pichel
G 1 RKO Window Tetzlaff
E 1 RKO Angel Face Preminger
G 1 RKO Clash By Night Lang
VG 1 RKO Racket Cromwell
E 1 RKO Slightly Scarlet Dwan
VG 1 RKO Split Second Grainger
VG 1 RKO Union Station Mate
1 UA Chicago Calling Reinhardt
VG 1 UA He Ran All The Way Berry
1 UA Wicked Woman Rouse
VG 1 Univ Larceny Sherman,G.
E 1 Univ Naked City Dassin
VG 1 WB Conflict Bernhardt
E 1 WB Mask of Dimitrios Negulesco
E 1 WB Nobody Lives Forever Negulesco
G 1 WB Cry In The Night Tuttle
G 1 WB Suddenly Allen
G 1 WB Tomorrow Is Another Day Feist
1 WB Body Heat Kasdan
Note that Mike's grading (maybe a bit too easy--did he grade on a curve in his classroom?) shows us the following about the gradations of the original Top 25 poll:
Top 25: 18 excellent
26-50: 15 excellent
51-73: 20 (!) excellent (I'd guess nine of these should be downgraded to "VG")
76-100: 12 excellent
Aside from the anomaly in the mid-range of the poll (which had to do with film availability in 2005), the results suggest that quality generally clustered more strongly in the upper echelon of the poll results).
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