The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith

Posted by Mike Jeter on May 6, 2025, 1:15 pm

Now that Deep River has suddenly decided to allow sub gauge tubes for small bore events, I'm thinking about getting some for a featherweight 12. I already have a set of 28s that work and am thinking about getting a set of 20s. Since it's for sporting clays and not skeet has anybody patterned a set of Briley sidekicks? Alternatively if a set of companion tubes will work in one LC Smith will they generally fit others with the same barrel lengths?

Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith

Posted by Steve Arnett on May 7, 2025, 9:06 am, in reply to "Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith"

I am not sure how I feel about allowing chamber reduces or full-length sub-gauge tube's. However, this not as "sudden" as it first appears. If I recall correctly, these devices have long been allowed for use in Damascus or twist barrels at the Southern SxS. While I think this is mostly superstitious, my observation has been that it is rarely seen on the course.
Also, note that there is no technical inspection of guns or ammunition. I have never seen a trapper check on this at any station over the 25 years I've attended. I sincerely hope that these events don't devolve into an "equipment race". These events have always been "self-policed" by sportsmen/women, in the spirit of using game guns. If this change encourages more participation, then it should be a good thing.

Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith

Posted by Drew Hause on May 7, 2025, 9:40 am, in reply to "Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith"

Yep. This is from 2008

EQUIPMENT
1. Shooters must use a shotgun of the make related to the Association they are representing (ie. L.C. Smith/Hunter Arms/Marlin for LCSCA or Parker for PGCA).
2. Participants may use any hammer or hammerless model and grade Smith or Parker gun produced by the original companies. Reproductions or modern/imported guns marketed under these famous names are not allowed for this event.
3. Any original gauge my be used
4. Modified and restored guns are allowed, including stock replacement/alteration, recoil pads shortened or lined barrels, screw-in chokes, etc. Relined barrels must be in the gauge originally manufactured.
5. Chamber inserts/reducers (Chamber-Mates, etc.) and full-length barrel inserts/reducers are acceptable only for use in twist or Damascus barreled vintage guns.
6. Shooters using guns equipped with screw-in chokes may not change choke tubes once they begin competition in each round.
7. Eye and ear protection are required of all competitors.

Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith

Posted by Mike Jeter on May 7, 2025, 9:52 am, in reply to "Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith"

While I agree for the most part, I can't really justify a 20 gauge Smith purchase to shoot 2 or 3 events a year. I usually shoot a 8 1/2-9 pound gun in competition and most 20 gauges are just too small in stock dimensions and weight for me to shoot with any degree of success, feels like I'm shooting a broomstick. To your last point, since they are allowed now I will probably shoot the 20/28 gauge events at Sanford that I didn't in the past. I shoot the 28 gauge event in Georgetown with tubes in a 12 gauge when I'm there and will probably pickup a set of 20 gauge Sidekicks to use in the future since none of my 20 tubes will fit

Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith

Posted by Steve Arnett on May 9, 2025, 3:29 pm, in reply to "Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith"
Edited by board administrator May 9, 2025, 4:00 pm

A couple of points that I would like to make:
1. The changes made by Deep River regarding the use of sub-gauge tube's apply only to the events that they sponsor.

2. There has been no discussion about allowing sub-gauge devices for the 20 ga. and 16 ga. Challenge Events that are contested on the Dove Field on Wed. and Thurs. each year. Those event are "unofficial", and are not sponsored by LCSCA or PGCA. I am of the opinion that these events should remain open to guns originally chambered for those gauges.

3. The rules posted by Dr. Hause above are for the Challenge Cup and Hammer Gun Challenge. Those events are open to any gauge, and the sub-gauge device option was meant to allow guns with twist and Damascus barrels to be used if their owners were concerned about safely using them in their original gauge. Obviously, there is no advantage to using sub-gauge in a competition open to 12 and 10 ga. guns.

Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith

Posted by Mike Jeter on May 9, 2025, 6:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith"

Deep River has changed their rules as I referenced in the original post, which was the reason for the post. Using sub gauge tubes would reasonably allow myself and others the ability to shoot an additional 4 events at Deep River during the weekend without having to purchase an additional 20 and 28 gauge gun which makes it a lot more reasonable from a financial stand point.

How this ventured in to a LCSCA/PCGA rules discussion is completely unintentional on my part and doesn't answer the questions in the original post.

Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith

Posted by Steve Arnett on May 10, 2025, 7:52 am, in reply to "Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith"

To answer you original question, I tried a set of Briley sidekicks in 28 ga. I did not like the way they worked. Half the time, the extractor pulls the unit(s) out of the barrel, because they're only held in by friction by a small nylon disc. Then you have to manually extract the spent hull from the device, re-insert it/them in the chamber before you can reload. Patterns were spotty, and picking up a few spent wads will show why. Gas blowby destroys the base seal.
Companion tubes are probably a better choice, but more expensive and add more weight.

Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith

Posted by Mike Jeter on May 10, 2025, 9:29 am, in reply to "Re: Sub gauge tubing a LC Smith"

Thanks, that's kind of what I expected but wasn't sure. I have a set of 28 gauge Rhino Stingers which are 15" long and have their own choke tubes that work fairly well since they are long enough for a reasonable powder burn and have gauge size choke tubes. With their O ring system they stay in the barrels pretty well as long as you use AA or STS shells. A friend has a pair of the newer style 20 gauge Sidekicks with the longer tubes in a Model 21 skeet that he says patterns fine for skeet but hasn't shot them at any longer distances. I'm going to borrow them in a couple of weeks and run some pattern testing in a FW 12 gauge with Mod/Full chokes and see what they look like.

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