The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Breeden on August 23, 2024, 10:47 am
Edited by board administrator August 23, 2024, 1:21 pm

From the Fall 2024 Journal:

I, with help from the readership, would like to concentrate on:
1. Proof of the two dog version termination in 1904,

2. The year of introduction of the four bird version.

Forum requests

Provide a picture of a:
1. Serial numbered Monogram double higher (later) than 202639 exhibiting the two dog version of engraving. Houchins reports on p. 532 that the highest number shipped in 1904 in the First Series Serial Numbers lists as 202639.

2. Serial numbered Monogram double lower (earlier) than 104695 exhibiting the four bird version of engraving. This article points to 1928 but there may be some earlier.

Re: Clarification of Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Breeden on August 25, 2024, 10:14 am, in reply to "Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

The Fall issue of our Journal illustrates and describes the several known versions of the Monogram. In the process of reviewing the different and distinct versions several questions, without answers, arose that are presented in the preceeding entry on this site. Answers to the questions from both MEMBERS and NONMEMBERS are encourged. LCSCA MEMBERS who have access to the article would understand what's going on but NONMEMBERS may be confused. This shortcoming can be corrected by becoming a MEMBER and requesting a copy of the Fall Journal from the small number of extra copies that may be available.

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Ken Descovich on August 25, 2024, 7:51 pm, in reply to "Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Tom,
I wish you luck on getting a closer look as to when this change happened, I'm sorry I can't help you.
Ken

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Trevor Rice on August 28, 2024, 9:49 pm, in reply to "Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"
Edited by board administrator August 29, 2024, 7:26 am

Tom I’m certain you’ve seen this, I wanted to add. I’ve not seen the fall 2024 journal yet.

I have access to all of Bucks records, there are over 10,000 photos. Its likely he has photos of what you are looking for.

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Breeden on August 29, 2024, 7:06 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

I don't recognize the material that you posted; is it from some of Buck's material? I have pictures of all the published versions of the Monogram but I am looking for WHEN the different versions appeared and ended. I would be interested to see what is included in the Appendix B cited in the last line of your post.

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Archer on August 29, 2024, 8:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Tom-I recognize the gun in the above 2nd photo from Brophy; that gun was made for Anna Reiker, a highly regarded female live bird and clays shooter from the early 1900's (her name remains on the gold stock shield). This gun does not represent one of the engraving transition guns you hope to see; but would be an extremely interesting gun to you, nonetheless. I'll post more information on that gun in a day or two. TA

Re: The Anna Reiker Monogram

Posted by Tom Archer on August 30, 2024, 1:31 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Anna Reiker was from a prominent PA family whose father and brothers loved shooting. Anna's Monogram shipped 3/18/04 and was ordered as a no-safety live bird gun with 30" Whitworth barrels and SST. Competed into the late 1930's beginning with her maiden name Anna Reiker, then with her husband's last name (Anna Vogel or Mrs. L,G, Vogel); and finally, after the death of L.G. Vogel, under the name of her second husband (Anna Cavers or Mrs. William Cavers) Anna died 8/7/58 having won dozens of shooting live bird and clays championships; and leaving her prized Monogram as part of her legacy. I first saw this gun on a dealer's table in Atlanta in the early 80's, but it was only after purchasing a copy of Brophy atter that show that I realized her gun was in the book; and even though I hadn't recorded the serial number, the gun was instantly recognized by its uniquely burled figure walnut stock. I was reunited with this gun about 6 years ago when the TX owner contacted me viw the LCSCA for information on this gun. I'd intended to write an article for the DGJ, but those plans were thwarted with the end of that publication. At any rate, the first photo is from an old newspaper clipping of Anna from 8/13 showing her holding her Monogram. The other photos are of her gun showing the double dog engraved left side lock, the expose area beneath lock plate showing no grade mark, and the barrel flats with also show no grade made. In fact, this gun void completely void of any grade indicator; the only grade ID being that is is recorded with the shipping ledgers as a Monogram, which might be of interest to Tom.

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Breeden on August 30, 2024, 1:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Trevor: I now realize your post came from Brophy's book: his info doesn't answer the questions I have posted. I am really trying to determine if any two dog versions were made after 1904. Both Brophy and Houchins state that this version ended 'about 1904'
I also believe that the two bird version comingled with the four bird version in later years but I have no proof

Tom: Look forward to your post

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Breeden on August 30, 2024, 2:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Tom, According to Brophy two guns were shipped on 3/18/1904, 201863 and 201975 about 6 months before the 'last' two dog version was shipped in September 1904. THe Brophy photos indicate two dog versions

Anna Reiker Monogram

Posted by Drew Hause on August 30, 2024, 3:46 pm, in reply to "Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

imgbb is not uploading images

From Brophy

Anna Reiker

Scroll down about 1/2 way here for more about Anna
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rlf_g8-XfH2zGUygpuBFbw7mBy1BYfTYTG_B0d0yHWw/edit

Re: Anna Reiker Monogram

Posted by Drew Hause on August 30, 2024, 3:48 pm, in reply to "Anna Reiker Monogram"

More from Bro. Tom

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Trevor Rice on September 2, 2024, 10:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"
Edited by board administrator September 3, 2024, 7:15 am

Tom I am looking for my grandpas 1919 Monogram if you know who has it

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by LCSCA Journal on September 3, 2024, 2:04 pm, in reply to "Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"
Edited by board administrator September 3, 2024, 2:50 pm

upload pic

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Drew Hause on September 3, 2024, 3:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

2 bird Monogram

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Archer on September 3, 2024, 8:36 pm, in reply to "Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

This won't help Tom in is research either; but it is a very unusual Monogram special ordered with gold pigeons on each lock plate; a 20-bore, serial number 58300, shipped 8/11/23. I didn't record the serial number of the most unusual Monogram Smith I've ever seen; found on a dealer's table at a gun show years ago. It was a 12-bore with 32" tubes on an RE frame. This special ordered gun featured two flying geese on each lock plate; but otherwise had no more engraving than a Grade 2. With the exception of engraving its wood quality, checkering, barrel steel, and factory markings was "Monogram" quality in all respects

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Trevor Rice on September 5, 2024, 1:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"
Edited by board administrator September 5, 2024, 2:12 pm

I need to get over to my Grandpa Bucks shop and look through his photos. He took pictures of everything unique. He’s likely to have some photos of different variation monograms

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Trevor Rice on September 17, 2024, 1:29 pm, in reply to "Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Tom,

This is from my Grandpa Buck Hamlins archives.

Below is a 1929 Monogram 4 Birds

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Breeden on September 17, 2024, 2:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Trevor, thanks for posting a beautiful Monogram. It would be nice if you could post a picture of the serial number to verify a 1929 vintage. If you don't have the serial number it could be an earlier version. As many of these nearly 100+ year old guns illustrate, it appears as though the wood originated in a different era. Still looking for a 4 bird Monogram produced in 1928 or earlier.

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by trevor rice on September 17, 2024, 2:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Buck had the pictures labeled 1929 Monogram. I do not have the SN. He restocked that gun

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Jim Wark on September 26, 2024, 11:52 am, in reply to "Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"
Edited by board administrator September 26, 2024, 12:59 pm

May be of some interest. This is last monogram SBT made.

Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions

Posted by Tom Breeden on September 26, 2024, 2:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Monograms: A Consideration of Different Versions"

Thanks Jim; Serial Number 182927 identifies the last Mono SBT with the 4 bird version on the left side. This completes a 21 year span of Mono SBTs with the first (a 2 Bird version) produced in 1920 (S/N 13578) and yours, the last in 1940. As previously noted S/N 127781 is a documented 4 bird version and is the earliest know 4 bird SBT version, produced in 1930.

An article on this subject appears in the current issue of the LCSCA Journal and pleads for pictures of doubles with serial numbers higher than 220639 showing 2 dog engravings and lower than 104695 exhibiting the 4 bird version. As of this date none have been offered so it appears the records for these guns shall remain unchanged

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