The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd Mckissick on August 15, 2023, 10:28 am

I just picked up a copy of "The Legand Lives" and I noticed that very little information about the Quality 1 guns was included in the section on early Fulton guns. The quality 2 guns shown are very close to this one, but no examples are shown or even mentioned as being manufactured. Are they that scarce? This one has the "double dog" butt plate and the big window safety.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on August 15, 2023, 2:09 pm, in reply to "Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

More than 6,200 Quality 1s were made before the grade designation was changed to No. 1 in 1896.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Tom Garver on August 15, 2023, 2:22 pm, in reply to "Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Lloyd, Dr. Jim covers the Quality 1 in his production book. There were 9211 guns of various gauges from 1890-1913. About 1898 they became known as Grade 1. I have a Quality 1, SN 31866, that has the original double dog butt plate, laminated steel barrels and the safety with the square opening which indicates that it has the 3 position safety. The lock plates only have a single line engraved border and LC SMITH. My gun must have been returned at some point as it has a 2nd set of crolle damascus barrels serialized to the gun.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 15, 2023, 3:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Mr. Garver: Thankyou! I was just surprised to see that variant not even being covered in Mr. Houchin's book. I would presume that the majority of production in those early years would be these lower-end guns. Clearly, the higher-end guns are more interesting (& likely received better care, thus ensuring better survival). In 1991, 375 guns were made (according to Houchens on page 99). Are production figures available to further break down production by grade?

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 15, 2023, 3:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Missed that in QC, 1891, not 1991.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by David Williamson on August 15, 2023, 3:42 pm, in reply to "Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

I'm misunderstanding the word transition for the Quality 1. Guns that are transitional mean that they transitioned from Syracuse to Fulton and carried some of the attributes of the Syracuse guns to new Fulton guns. Syracuse never made a Quality 1.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 15, 2023, 4:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

From further reading, on page 113 Houchins mentions Quality 2 guns priced at $80 and Quality 3 at $100, he then goes on to mention that Quality 1 was first offered in 1892 for "price on application". At the end of that page he mentions that the first year Quality "O" was introduced at $47, with the Quality 1 at $60. So....extrapolating that I'd guess this 1891 gun was a $60 gun then? He also mentions that the transitional guns were "very scarce". Is that assertion still correct?

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 15, 2023, 4:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Thankyou Mr. Williamson, that's interesting and it explains a lot. This gun has all the attributes of a "Quality 1" gun, w/the perimeter line-engraving and the laminated steel tubes. Mr. Stubbendieck indicated to me earlier here that the SN records do indicate it was a Quality 1, even though they didn't "officially" start production until 1892. I guess it's transitional in the sense that it still has several attributes of the earlier Syracuse guns (the more-pronounced bolsters on the bottom of the frame, the rounded screws, the bigger breech balls, the earlier extractor mechanism, etc.)

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 15, 2023, 4:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

This gun's SN dates it to 1890 and other than the twist steel barrels, it's almost identical to my 1891 gun. William Larkin Moore's shop has it listed on online, but they mistakenly ID it as an "O Grade" gun. It's clearly "transitional" in that it still has the square barrel lump (mine is rounded at the front). That forend is all-wrong too (likely a replacement).

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on August 15, 2023, 5:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

For the time that he wrote his book 17-18 years ago, Houchins did a pretty good job of summarizing the production information. However, John did not have the latest production information. Some of his production summaries are amazingly close to the latest information, especially for the higher grades. Brophy counted the ledger entries of the higher grades, but production numbers for the mid and lower grades were largely estimates. Houchins based his numbers on Brophy's estimates. He then made some adjustments in the final numbers. The magnitude of his adjustments and his reasons for these changes are unknown.

The Hunter Arms Company ledgers contain 10,000 to 11,000 pages. Remember that Brophy's data were collected before the aid of computers. Now we the advantage of computers, databases and spreadsheets.

Quality 1/No. 1 (first seven years)

1890 - 1,647
1891 - 1,399
1892 - 1,449
1893 - 237
1894 - 1,042
1895 - 433
1896 - 409

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on August 15, 2023, 5:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Quality 1 production started in 1890.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd Mckissick on August 15, 2023, 5:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Thank you Mr. Stubbendieck.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on August 15, 2023, 8:51 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Can you provide a production date for 22552?
This gun would have been a quality 1.
(I know they didn't make them)
Only the most basic line engraving on the frame.
No number on the flat except the serial, #22552
Only the makers name engraved on the locks with a line around the perimeter IIRC,
English walnut with no figure.
I only had the stocked receiver and parted it out. Never saw the barrels or forend but I've seen many Quality 2's and this was distinctly planer with less embellishments than a Quality 2.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by David Wiliamson on August 16, 2023, 5:46 am, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Serial number 22552 is a Syracuse gun made in 1887 and would be a Quality 2.7225253

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on August 16, 2023, 11:50 am, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

David,

Thank you for responding.

The gun had none of the engraving of a quality 2 which I compared very closely, holding it beside a Quality 2.
The serial of the Quality 2 which I compared it to is within 52 numbers of it so they would have been in production at approximately if not exactly the same time.

The breach balls, toplever, locks, trigger guard are devoid of any of the typical Quality 2 engraving and of course there is no #2 grade stamp on the frame.
It only had the most minimal line engraving throughout.

The wood has no figure, save a couple small knots.
People always tell me never say never when it comes to these guns.
They may have not advertised it but they did indeed make a gun beneath the quality 2 and I still have what remains of one if anyone has doubts.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by David Williamson on August 16, 2023, 12:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Dan you are correct in that guns not cataloged were made, the 8 gauge is one that was made in Syracuse but not in any catalog.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on August 16, 2023, 12:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

I have regretted parting that gun out but at the time I needed parts, and it needed barrels and a forend, so I cannibalized it.
Later, of course, barrels and forends came and went...

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on August 16, 2023, 1:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

It's interesting that they wouldn't advertise an 8ga since they were all about selling guns.
I've often wondered why their product line started at Quality 2 and they didn't advertise guns like my 22552.
Did they think it would diminish their brand to sell such a utilitarian gun?
In later years they certainly bragged up their 00's and field grades.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd Mckissick on August 18, 2023, 10:50 am, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Mr. Wildhaber: If it's at all possible, could you post some photographs of that gun's receiver? I'd be specifically interested in the shape of the base and the standing breach/lockplates. I know you've parted it out but it would be interesting to see what the "Quality 1" guns argueably evolved from.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on August 18, 2023, 12:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Lloyd,
I don't seem to be able to post pictures on here lately but I would be happy to email pictures to you or anyone else who could post them. I gifted the locks to Dennis Smith, the Stock Doctor, so all I have left is the receiver itself.
It is all Syracuse. Not a transitional gun.
But it is interesting just because it isn't mentioned in any of the literature.
Email is runninforthebarn(at)gmail.com

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Tom Garver on August 18, 2023, 7:16 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Dan, if you are interested in selling this receiver please email me at cedarclyffelodge@gmail.com or call 717-887-0545. I'm restoring 20909 and I need a Quality 2 receiver and forend iron. Thanks, Tom

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd Mckissick on August 18, 2023, 7:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Dan: that email didnt work for some reason, try mine: lloydmckissick@yahoo.com.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on August 18, 2023, 10:29 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Tom

This isn't a Quality 2 receiver.

The sculpting is way different.

With some deft file work I'm sure you could make it one but you would have to reshape the top of receiver with some points and then engrave, etc.
It is a usable receiver, with lots of surface "patina".
Lloyd has offered to post pictures so you can see what I'm trying to describe.
Like they say, a picture is good for a thousand words

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 20, 2023, 2:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Here is Dan's gun:

Clearly a Syracuse product, and likely a precursor to the Quality 1 guns (What year of production was this? Not finding 22552 in the chart.)

An 1890 Quality 1 (1st year at Fulton):

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on August 20, 2023, 7:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Thank you Lloyd for posting these for me.

For those familiar with Syracuse guns and Quality 2 guns, you will notice the reduced sculpting and lack of engraving on this receiver.

The prominent points filed onto a Quality 2 are missing from the top on this receiver.

The little embellishments in the line engraving is also missing. The engraving around the rib extension, is reduced to a simple line.
Although I no longer have the locks, they didn't have the sunburst that other Quality 2 I have examined have had.

I sent Lloyd another picture comparing a Quality 2 and this one in the same picture.
Hopefully he will be be able to post it.
The difference is fairly dramatic.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 20, 2023, 11:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Here you go Dan.

These are two very differently sculpted fences and yet both are Syracuse guns? I'd be curious to hear what the records indicate for the date of production of this arguably Syracuse "Quality 1" gun. Post 1886 obviously, but I can't find anything for SN 22552.

It looks a great deal to me like the 1890 Fulton Quality 1 gun I posted here earlier.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by David Williamson on August 21, 2023, 8:52 am, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Dan, LLoyd, the bottom three picture shown is a transitional gun. It has no maker's name, still has the squared lug, but now has the slanted breech balls. The top 3 pictures are a Syracuse gun showing the round breech balls. They both have the large convex ribs on the bottom of the reciever. The serial number on the top gun is from 1887. There are no records that we know of and the only information we do have is a 3"x6" notepad that Lyman Cornelius Smith gave to his brother-in-law George (Livermore) when the gun works was sold to John Hunter Sr. In this notepad from an accountant it shows on one page the number of hammer and hammerless guns made in 1886, in August it shows 15 hammerless guns made and the total price of them. This was the start of the hammerless guns in 1886. The total from August to December was 286 hammerless guns made. Again, the serial numbers for hammerless guns started at 16000, then 18,000, 19,000, 20,000, 22,000 up to 23,552 in my records.
So the years made after 1886 is speculation from that notepad of how many were made in those months to a guess on how many then were made in the following years.
I have 382 serial numbers of hammer and hammerless guns as of August 2023. There are a few guns that are Syracuse guns sent back to Fulton for a new set of barrels, for-ends, stocks etc. all done in the Syracuse style. Like I stated earlier, I don't have any Quality 1 guns in my records, but I have 8 guage guns listed and they are all Quality 2's.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 21, 2023, 10:03 am, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Mr. Williamson: "Slanted, not rounded" is a good description of how a transitional gun's fences (or "standing breech") appears, at least to me anyway. Thankyou for that, and also for the date of production of Dan's receiver. It's all much-ado-about-nothing really, but...it's interesting to better understand that transitional period. Neat stuff and fun to contemplate.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 21, 2023, 10:17 am, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

The "slanted balls" on my current project gun. SN 34342.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 21, 2023, 10:26 am, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

but...they still look fairly rounded here.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by David Williamson on August 21, 2023, 2:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Here again we see that there is no maker's name on the right barrel or rib. The ribs are now thinner on the bottom of the receiver.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by David Williamson on August 21, 2023, 2:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

You have to look at a Syracuse gun and then yours and see how the breech balls on the Syracuse gun are very close to the sideplate. On a 10 gauge Syracuse gun they are almost touching.

10 gauge Syracuse

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 21, 2023, 5:10 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

yep!

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Lloyd McKissick on August 21, 2023, 5:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

This isn't a knock on the later guns but the lines here are pleasing to me. Transitional guns lasted what... 3-years?

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Dan Wildhaber on August 22, 2023, 1:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

David
Thanks for taking the time to provide the information pertaining to the records, etc.
It would be nice to have complete documentation but obviously it doesn't exist.
Your explanation provides a lot of insight.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by David Williamson on August 22, 2023, 2:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Dan thanks, I have been studying the Syracuse line of L.C. Smith's for over 15 years. I originally started just researching about hammer guns because there was nothing written about them, and then realized there wasn't much about the hammerless line either so started collecting serial numbers and pictures when I could of both guns. Then I started with the early L.C. Smith Maker of Baker Guns of 1877 and have collected a fair amount of serial numbers and pictures of these fine hammer and 3 barrel guns. Daryl Halquist has helped with some of these guns and just recently I found out that the early Baker guns were not serial numbered.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Tom Garver on August 22, 2023, 7:21 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

David, when you say that the early Baker guns weren't serialized do you mean Baker Pat'd or WH Baker?

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by David Williamson on August 23, 2023, 12:23 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

It is the early W.H. Baker guns. I had put in my book a Baker 3 barrel with 16x16x 38-55 that a gentleman in California sent to me, the only number it had was 1 nothing else. I thought it was a serial number but Darly Halquist told me the early Baker guns were not serial numbered. It was a Grade 1 and probably one of the first 16 gauges built.

Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns

Posted by Tom Garver on August 23, 2023, 5:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Quality 1 transitional Fulton guns"

Thanks, David. Just checked my WH Baker drilling and SxS and none have serial numbers

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