The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on April 11, 2022, 7:16 pm

I have just become the owner of an LC Smith trap grade gun in very good condition S/N R47269 with Crown steel 30 inch barrels choked full and by my gauge half way between full and thee quarter in the other barrel, after reading a lot of posts on this forum on the trap grade my gun appears out of the norm as the engraving on my gun isn't the usual 5 shooters at the trap on one lock plate and one shooter with gun raised shooting at what appears to be a bob white Quail on the other, my lock plates have what appears to be two bob white Quail in a field on one plate and again two Quail in a undulating field on the other the engravings are not the same and the birds are not in a circle as seen on a lot of guns. I live in Australia and the LC Smith gun is very rare here so any information would be much appreciated.
cheers
Darryl

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Drew Hause on April 12, 2022, 7:21 am, in reply to "Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Welcome Darry. Any idea how the gun made it to Australia?
Does the gun have a 'T' underneath the SN?
Some No. 3 lockplates have quail not within an oval

It is possible that the lockplates were replaced, or as you suggested the engraving was special ordered.
A Research Letter might explain things, and also should document to where the gun was originally shipped
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=43784&module_id=245742

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on April 12, 2022, 7:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Thanks Drew for your response, yes my gun has the
T under the S/N and yes the lock plate you displayed is the same as mine I called that one
undulating ground the other plate has flat ground
both with the two quail.
I have no idea how the guns got to Aus the only
thing I know is that a very elderly man sold two
LC Smith guns to a gun shop in NSW I had the pick
of the two and opted for the Trap grade the other
one looked to me to be an Ideal/field grade both
were the same price, I buy and sell guns regularly
and these are the only LC Smith guns I have seen
come up for sale over many years, some other info
you might be interested in is that the gun is a
12g twin trigger with extractors the stock is a
pistol grip with a Hawkins heart shape vent recoil
pad which in my opinion was factory fitted, I have
dismantled the whole gun and all S/N match including the lock plates, the gun is in exceptional condition inside and out (no rust or pitting) and the stock has no cracks or splits and retains its original finish, the action still has
about 75% of the color case hardening, as you can
tell I am more than pleased with my LC Smith gun,
Drew would you have any idea of what year the gun
would have been made.
cheers
Darryl

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Drew Hause on April 13, 2022, 7:07 am, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Very interesting and thank you Darryl.
It was manufactured about 1922, which a Research Letter would confirm.
If you request a letter, please let us know where the gun was originally shipped.

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on April 13, 2022, 8:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Thanks again Drew
I have taken your advice and joined up and also requested a research letter on my gun, I will give you all the details when I receive my letter.
cheers
Darryl

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on May 25, 2022, 12:38 am, in reply to "Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Hi Drew
my research letter arrived today, you asked for any information regarding how the gun got to Australia, Iam afraid we are out of luck the gun was shipped to a W.T.Stevens no address recorded but the name W.Tyrie.Stevens. appears occasinally as a New York City shipping destination in the 1920.There was no mention as to the gun being a special order (refering to the different engraving as that found on my gun) the letter does say that a few engraving variations have been observed.
I was wondering if I post another request asking our members who have a Trap Grade gun if they have or have seen 2 Quails not in circles on each of the lock plates whether this might shed some light on the anomaly, what do you think?
cheers
Darryl

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Drew Hause on May 25, 2022, 8:04 am, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Thank you for the follow-up Darryl.
Yes, W.T. (Walter Tyrie) Stevens was a general exporter in N.Y.
https://books.google.com/books?id=7OLmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA19&lpg

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Stanley Hackett on May 25, 2022, 8:23 am, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

I recently completed an article for the LCSCA Journal on "trap and skeet, grades and guns." It should appear in the June, 2022, edition. In the course of researching and writing the article, I examined in person or by photograph a number of Trap Grade guns.
I saw a number of engraving variations, but none which had the pattern on your gun. I agree with Drew: it appears to be a variation of the pattern on a pre-1913 No. 3 gun. The major variations I saw included (1) 5 shooters on each sideplate and (2) 5 shooters on one sideplate with a single shooter on the other. Sometimes the 5 shooters were in a straight line, sometimes they were in a staggered line. With a magnifying glass other small differences in the patterns could be detected, I believe simply due to the fact that the engraving was all hand work.
I find your gun really interesting. You might consider writing an article for the Journal, with pictures. I'm sure the editors and the membership would appreciate it, and it could be a valuable reference next time somebody writes an article about Trap Grades.

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on May 26, 2022, 1:25 am, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Thanks Stanley for your response to my query with regards to the engraving on my Trap grade gun, I knew it was unusual as I have scrolled thru most of the posts on this site relating to the Trap grade and have only ever seen the 5 shooters at the trap and the one shooter on the other side plate, because these guns are very rare here in Australia and seldom seen I have had to rely on this forum for my information, I doubt that I would have enough information on the gun to put an article in the Journal if I had more information regarding how the gun found its way to Australia then that would be another story. Iam looking forward to getting my June issue of the Journal to read your article Iam sure there will be some great reading in it, I will definitely take some photos of my gun and post them on this forum for you and the other members to look at.
cheers
Darryl

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photos of unusual Trap Grade gun

Posted by Darryl Read on May 30, 2022, 3:14 am, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Hi Stanley
I have posted you these photos of my Trap Grade gun as I realize you have a special interest in this model gun, the engraving is of special interest and is self explanatory along with the other photos, the photo of the forend lug and barrel is of interest as you will note that there is a number 3 stamped into the barrel why I have no idea but perhaps one of the members may be able to shed some light on the subject, I have also added a photo of the stock and action so that you
can see the exceptional condition of this fine 100 year old gun
cheers
Darryl

always sunny gif

m facebook com b

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Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun

Posted by Zachary Hopkins on May 30, 2022, 9:57 am, in reply to "photos of unusual Trap Grade gun"

That is an absolutely beautiful gun. I love the engraving as well as the rarity of it. Zachary

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Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun

Posted by Darryl Read on May 30, 2022, 6:52 pm, in reply to "Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun"

thanks Zachary yes Iam very lucky to be the caretaker of such a lovely gun I will be interested to see if any other members respond, perhaps there are other Trap Grade guns out there with similar engraving but like you I think the gun is quite rare, I was a bit surprised that the research letter didn't make mention that the gun was a special order because obviously to have that style of engraving on a Trap Grade gun is not the norm, some body must have ordered it that way, perhaps we will never know!
cheers
Darryl

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Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun

Posted by Tom Archer on May 31, 2022, 3:06 pm, in reply to "Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun"

For what my opinion is worth Darryl, Smith guns with special engravings are not that unusual. In this case, given that a Trap Grade represented a special order anyway, the purchaser elected to have his engraving designs duplicate those of the earlier Grade 3 model. He may have paid extra for that engraving pattern, or the company could have agreed to meet his request at no additional charge; but whatever his reasoning, the Grade 3 pattern is much more appealing than the Trap Grade pattern. As to the research letter not indicating the gun as a special order, if you review Dr. Stubbendieck's book, you'll note not a single mention of a gun graded as a "Special" Grade (although there is at least one pre-13 example that was over looked). We don't have the order cards which would've recorded all special requests, we only have the shipping records containing the most basic gun specifications; but I've personally seen a number of special engraved guns. Some will have a grade stamp consistent with features; but most I've seen are graded in a grade lower than external features would indicate. I actually saw an early Grade 3E Saturday with unusual engraving, the two woodcock were engraved in the typical fashion; but instead of two quail in a field scene on the opposite side, one quail was standing in the field and the other perched in a tree. Like you, I find these unusual guns far more interesting. And for what it's worth, we know from a 1941 Kraus prepared engraving schedule, that the engraving shop was still offering engraving in new and old style patterns. That policy could have changed after the Marlin acquisition?

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Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun

Posted by Darryl Read on May 31, 2022, 7:07 pm, in reply to "Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun"

Thanks Tom, I do respect your opinion and I do realize that Jim included all the information that he had available on the gun, because the company were so obliging to their customers I imagine these variations would not be unusual, when you refer to a gun being a grade 3 what does that actually mean? my gun being a Trap Grade with grade 3 engraving on it does that mean my gun is a grade 3 gun?
cheers
Darryl

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Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun

Posted by Tom Archer on May 31, 2022, 8:56 pm, in reply to "Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun"

Not at all, your gun was assigned the post-1913 factory designation "Trap Grade"; the unusual pre-1913 Grade 3E I referred to is factory grade stamped "3E". Who knows why the original purchaser of your gun specified the pre-1913 Grade 3 engraving pattern, but it was available and I assume it was a design he preferred over the cataloged Trap Grade engraving pattern. No one can explain all the grading mysteries surrounding L.C. Smith guns. As an example consider the photos below; a 16-bore engraved in a high-grade style and pattern, but is identified by the grade assignment in the shipping records and atop the barrel as an Ideal Grade. Guns like yours are quite desirable in my opinion; and yours could be a one-off? Most likely you'll never know the reasons behind the engraving pattern; so enjoy being its caretaker, and many thanks for sharing.

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Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun

Posted by Darryl Read on June 1, 2022, 1:57 am, in reply to "Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun"

Thanks Tom, much appreciated.
cheers
Darryl

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Re: photos of unusual Trap Grade gun

Posted by Stanley Hackett on June 1, 2022, 7:58 pm, in reply to "photos of unusual Trap Grade gun"

The "3" on the underside of the barrel may have something to do with barrel weight. Others more familiar may chime in and clarify. That's a really neat gun, Daryl.

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Stanley Hackett on June 3, 2022, 11:11 am, in reply to "Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Darryl, I looked more closely at the photos of your Trap Grade and it appears to me that it is not just the sidelocks that have a variation of the engraving on a No. 3 gun. The engraving on the breech balls and the line engraving on the rest of the receiver are all consistent with a No. 3 gun, not a Trap Grade. To me, all this just makes the gun all the more interesting. I hope you reconsider writing an article. I’m pretty sure the new editor would appreciate it and I know the membership would. In any event, have a great day!

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Tom Archer on June 3, 2022, 2:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

I'm sure that the makers would have provided more detail as to what their actions may have represented had they ever thought that we'd have so many questions decades after the fact; but they didn't and that's why we have so much fun "theorizing". Again, I have no answers as to the unusual engraving of this Trap Grade; perhaps the "3" stamp was a signal to the engraving shop as to the engraving style the customer had ordered? Grade 3 engraving patterns were still available when this gun was built as we see from the 1941 Kraus prepared engraving schedule below. The dollar amounts quoted represented the engraving shop cost; I've no idea what the company may have charged the company. But note that the cost to engrave a Grade 3 gun (all but barrels) was $3.80 in 1941; and that cost is the exact same cost for engraving a Trap Grade gun (barrel engraving was $.20 extra). Based on that information, the original customer may have had to pay zero extra dollars for the Grade 3 engraving he preferred?
Again, it'd be nice if we had the answers to many of our questions; the photo below the schedule being another. Can anyone explain why the gun in that photo is factory Graded 3E?

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on June 3, 2022, 8:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Thanks Stanley for your reply if only these guns could talk! as Tom said not knowing gives us a lot to theorize about, Iam glad you and Tom find my gun interesting, I hope other members with unusual Trap Grade guns chime in, my gun cant be the only one out there with this style of engraving? as far as writing an article for the journal as I said before I don't think I would have enough content, Iam eagerly waiting for the June edition of the journal to read your article and who knows it might spur me on.
cheers
Darryl

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on June 3, 2022, 8:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Thanks Tom, when you look at some of the other engraving patterns like the one in your post it makes mine look rather plain but that's not what this is about its the rarity of a Trap Grade having the grade3 pattern surely this is not the only one there and here in Australia wouldn't it be great to know how and by whom.
cheers
Darryl

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Tom Archer on June 4, 2022, 11:28 am, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

"my gun cant be the only one out there with this style of engraving" Well Darryl, it represented a special order and could very well be? Without access to the original order cards, which have disappeared, the only way we can say that it isn't is for another example to surface.

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on June 4, 2022, 6:55 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Thanks Tom, lets keep our fingers crossed.
cheers
Darryl

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Craig Larter on June 8, 2022, 2:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Here is my Speciality marked gun engraved as a early A1
https://i.ibb.co/QXf6VDb/DSC-0003.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/QXf6VDb/DSC-0003.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/D7HHGpM/DSC-0006.jpg

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Ken Descovich on June 8, 2022, 6:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Very nice Craig
Ken

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Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs

Posted by Darryl Read on June 8, 2022, 7:06 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

Thanks Craig, as Ken said that's a beautiful gun, I have put the feelers out here in Australia to see if I can find a Specialty grade or higher but I don't like my chances , they are so rare down here, but in the end Iam more than happy with my Trap Grade.
cheers
Darryl

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Thread has been locked

Posted by LCSCA on June 9, 2022, 12:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Information on my newly acquired LC Smith sxs"

This long, complex thread has been locked. Please do not hesitate to start another on the same subject.

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[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]