These were just little powderpuff cartridges I was shooting at the doves. Only 1 1/8 ounce 3 dram loads of #8 shot in Winchester AA Heavy Trap Loads. My favorite for doves, they're fine up close but also pack a little punch if the birds are high. That barn pigeon was 50 yards or more, pulled the back trigger on him and he came out like a stone.