Interesting that Sammelhafen has so many models listed under "Framburg Copy", complete with specific model numbers ("F-CO XX").
Is their list of "real" Framburg models accurate, or better to rely on the Fred Dorris book?
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Yes, I see your point. But if it’s a straight on copy without adequate markings to determine who made it, then what use does a listing really provide? One can search Sammelhafen for the real thing and determine if they have one, or a copy. If it can be identified as a Superior, it should be in the Superior listing in Sammelhafen. But otherwise I don’t know if it’s worth having a category to just dump them into as “XYZ COPY.” In the case of the “FRAMBURG COPY” in Sammelhafen, there are no photos, and some of the models listed there were never made by Framburg. So not only is it inaccurate, but without photos, it’s useless.
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Paul, to answer your rhetorical question... I'd say it depends on the purpose of the Sammelhafen list. If its purpose is the allow collectors to (with luck) identify a ship model the maker of which is unknown to them, then I think their inclusion is reasonable. If it's Sammelhafen's purpose to document only what we would regard as "legitimate" models original to them, then no. Previous Message
Actually his main business became doll house miniatures. Not long after he died, I spoke to his widow. She told me that their main business was doll house items, and that ship models were a side line that Hal alone pursued and she thought was a waste of time and money.
When Hal and Cy started producing their products, what they were making were original castings from their own molds. Both were model soldier collectors, but Cy also scratch built hundreds of 1200 scale ship models, so he was actually the one who was into ship models, not Hal. They tried producing ship models but soon gave that up, and focused instead on parts for ship models and toy soldiers. When they split, Cy continued with ship model parts. Hal went another direction.
The issue I have with Hal is that all the ship models he did were simply copies of other people’s work. And some were done without the permission of the original creators, who in some cases were still in business themselves. Those folks simply couldn’t afford to protect their copyrights. Now, Framburg had essentially abandoned their copyright, so they were fair game. But Superior asked before copying their models. And Superior turned them into their own models by making modifications to them. Superior also bought the Comet molds, hence the right to the copyright on all Comets. The question for me then becomes, should the producer of straight on copies, some unauthorized, be included in a list of manufacturers such as Sammelhafen? Would a person who made copies of Van Gogh’s be included in a list of artists? Previous Message
Yes. Hal's main business, I recall, was model railroad stuff. I'm looking for my file of Metal Miniaturessales lists. I seem to recall that the words "Framburg copy models" or something like that was printed there. Over many years, I contributed many models that were added to Hal's lists. Both Hal and Cy made me thousands of spare parts that I still use today in model-making. Both men were tops in my humble opinion. Previous Message
I knew Hal Reynolds very well, and for a number of years. As members of the Military Miniatures Society of Illinois in the 1960s I saw him frequently. He and Cy Broman started HR products, and I actually saw their first workshop and received some of their early castings which they ultimately chose not to produce in quantity. Eventually they split, and Cy took HR and Hal started his own company. Much of what Hal’s company produced were not ship models. The ship models he did produce were a variety of copies of various models by Comet, Framburg, Star etc. None of it was under license. Hal sold them all under the name Metal Miniatures. The Framburg copies were never marketed as “Framburg Copy” nor publicly acknowledged to be so. Whether or not the models listed in Sammelhafen are ones made by Hal, I don’t think can be confirmed. What is certain is that some of those listed were never produced by Framburg and thus should not be labeled as Framburg copies. Previous Message
As a collector of Framburg models all my life. These two terms come out like this: A Framburg model is a model made by H.A.Framkburg during WWII in Chicago, IL. A Fraamburg Copy is a model cast using a Framburg model as prototype. Primarily, these were made by Hal Reynolds of Metal Miniatures. I first bought them in about 1973 When I met Mr. Kauder (then Midshipman, USN) in San Diego and he introduced them to me. I met Hal and his family soon afterward. Great man, lovely family! If other persons ever made copies of Framburg models, other than a small number that appeared in 1970,Ihave never seen them. I don't understand why Paul doesn't acknowledge this. He knew Hal during the same time as I did back in the 1970s & beyond. I have no idea what Sammelhafen had to say about this. But, my comments are straight out of my experiences
and I didn't just read it somewhere! Previous Message
So far as I am aware the vast majority of copies of Framburgs have been done by Superior (Alnavco). Framburg did not protect its copyright since it ceased production of the models after WW II, thus allowing Superior to use its models to cast their own revised versions. No doubt there may have been other small casters who made copies over the ensuing decades, but I am not aware of any large scale producer of Framburg copies other than Superior.
I also note that a number of the models, especially submarines but also several large ships, on the Sammelhafen list were never produced by Framburg, hence cannot be copies. Previous Message
The Sammelhafen site shows both a Framburg and a Framburg Copy in their database. I am very familiar with the history of the long departed Framburg models, but can anyone tell me anything about the Framburg Copy manufacturer?
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