Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 2006 - Data readings on the IMV and PCV valves #
Posted by Eamonn Greene on March 19, 2014, 6:52 pm
Year of Manufacture *: 2006 Engine Size and Code *: 2.2 L ( Optional ) ECU Type: Bosch ( Optional ) Scanner Used: GDS
Hi Guys, I'm doing some self study here on a '06 Santa Fe. On the dealership Workshop Manual I'm studying what the data should read on the IMV and PCV valves on the Bosch CP3 Pump.
The following is a direct quote from the dealer workshop manual: In order to control rail pressure to be optimum to current driving condition, ECM controls fuel pressure regulator valve operating current(with the method of duty-control) using RPCV signal, RPM and APS signal. The LOWER Fuel pressure regulator valve current is, the MORE fuel is supplied to common rail. Thus it leads rail pressure to be high. On the contrary, the HIGHER Fuel pressure regulator valve current is, the LESS fuel is supplied to common rail. Thus it leads rail pressure to be low. Therefore, when Fuel metering unit current becomes "0", as if there is open spot in Fuel metering unit circuit or connector is disconnected, maximum fuel quantity is supplied to common rail, so the pressure of common rail rise to maximum value."
The above info is correct, is simple and is easy to understand.
But then the manual shows the following graphs / information:
These graphs show that the duty% is increasing under acceleration but surely if the system is adding fuel, the ECU should be decreasing the IMV Duty% in it's efforts to reduce IMV current. I find this confusing and I think that this info is incorrect. By the vay, they refer to the IMV valve as the Pressure Regulating Valve.
Would anyone like to commenton this?
Thanks for your time and effort Regards Eamonn
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Mark Carter on March 20, 2014, 1:39 pm, in reply to "Hyundai Santa Fe" Mark Carter
Remove you blinkers and look at what else is happening at the same moment in time, this should answer your question.
Just out of interest the Bosch name for the same part is ZME and it is a "flow" control valve.
MarkModern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Eamonn Greene on March 20, 2014, 5:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe" Eamonn Greene
I'm afraid we are not all genuises like you Mr Carter
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Mark Carter on March 20, 2014, 7:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe"
I'm defiantly not a genius and I'm sorry if it came over as that, not intended in any way shape or form. Just trying to make you look at the bigger picture.
Regards MarkModern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Nigel Bennett on March 20, 2014, 8:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe" Nigel Bennett
Mark,I don't believe when they talk about current they mean Amps.
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Mark Carter on March 20, 2014, 9:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe" Mark Carter
Sorry Nige you have lost me? can you expand on your last post.Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Graeme Simm on March 22, 2014, 8:14 am, in reply to "Hyundai Santa Fe"
the problem here is nobody wants to answer incase they are wrong and get a comment from Mr Carter, Mark has access to a lot of information and does a great job answering most posts, thank you Mark for trying to educate people by making them think, but Eamonn has the information and he is finding it difficult to get his head around, so telling him to look at the bigger picture really is not going to help him.
As I understand it, and I have no doubt I will be told if I am wrong; this is a two point control system with an inlet metering valve on the pump (insert any acronym)essentially controlling the low pressure flow of fuel into the high pressure pump. constant 12v gives no flow so high amp (current)reading means less flow and 0v gives full flow e.g. less amps increase flow. a decent test for this regulator is to unplug it and it should increase fuel pressure. therefore pressure decreases with current. The second point of control is the Rail pressure control valve which controls the pressure in the rail by controlling the fuel return, essentially it is a tap, turn the tap off it creates high pressure in the rail, turn the tap on a gradually it lessens the pressure in the rail. this works opposite to the inlet side as when it has 12v constant (high amps)it is closed so full pressure in the rail, when it has 0v low amps it has no pressure in the rail. so rail pressure increases with on time (PWM)therefore pressure increases with current. both regulators work by controlling current (amps)by switching the voltage to the component using pulse width modulation (PWM)
longer than I anticipated but I hope it helps someone.
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Eamonn Greene on March 22, 2014, 9:31 am, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe" Eamonn Greene
Thank you so much Grame for your decent,dignified and humble reply to my question.
God Bless You Eamonn
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Jim Power on March 22, 2014, 7:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe" James Power
I don't know Mark Carter and have never met him, but since joining on here a couple of years back I have come to realize that he is what most of us would accept as a specialist, an expert on diesel systems.
A Bosch instructor, if I am not mistaken and answers posts in a way he would in a course environment I would think.
The printed word is not as personal as the spoken word and sometimes can be misinterpreted in a way that was not intended. This should be kept in mind when, either reading or writing a post.
The old saying goes "it's not what you say, but how you say it" and I sincerely hope nobody see's this as having a go at anyone.
jim power
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by aidan birley on March 23, 2014, 2:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe"
Hi
Just thought I would put a couple of thoughts in the pot
Personally I feel the reference to current just over-complicates basic understanding the function of the system.
Wouldn't focusing on the duty cycle of valve be a simpler concept to understand ?
May also be worth considering the effect of pump speed which is of course a variable factor.
The Graph/scope trace make no reference to the second point of control,(rail pressure control) to be honest I have not studied in depth how the two valves are operated /controlled during various operating conditions. But it would probably be better to monitor/scope the two together?
I know Mark's comments where intended in a positive way, not intended to personally knock anyone.
Cheers Aidan
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Dave Hill on March 23, 2014, 7:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe"
It is a shame to see yet again a misinterpretation of helpful input from a switched on technician.
Mark has been very generous with his time spent on this Forum (and others) where it will often be seen that he is attempting to stimulate the flow of some creative thinking in the mind of the recipient.
Many others in the past have taken some flack over their posting style & most of them have stepped back from regular posting. It wouldn't hurt to stand back & consider the effect on these forums, if the clever guys were to think... "Ahhh sod it!"
I understand that, when we are at the sharp end & we need a quick result, that all we want to here is..... "replace fuse number 3 & repair the blue wire underneath the radiator"
The long game requires a bit more though does't it?
Frustrating though for sure, when you are getting your ass kicked!
Stick with it Mark!
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Tony Attwood on March 23, 2014, 9:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe"
Hi all,
My thoughts on this are:
In addition to the DRV on the rail dropping any excess rail pressure, remember that the engine is accelerating under load.
The injector open time will be greater than an idle situation, creating more demand for fuel & dropping rail pressure in the process.
If we also have turbo boost, that again will create more fuel demand at a higher pressure.
To obtain that, the ECU will increase the IMV duty off time to supply the demand, so my thoughts are the text you are reading is correct.
I also second the positive remarks by folk in relation to Mark's assistance.
PS, I've obtained a few bags of Maynards Wine gums to negate adverse comments from Mark in case I'm wrong !!!
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Bryan Smith on March 23, 2014, 10:32 pm, in reply to "Hyundai Santa Fe" Bryan Smith
What I see as "missing" from Eamonn's original post is where is the circuit tested? In other words is this a switched supply or earth? I haven't looked at any pin data for this system but from Graeme's explanation I would think switched supply would make sense. I know that the current would be the same either side of the valve but the duty cycle would surely be different and that would reflect in the waveform? Regards to all, Bryan.
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Mark Carter on March 23, 2014, 10:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe" Mark Carter
>>> thank you Mark for trying to educate people by making them think, but Eamonn has the information and he is finding it difficult to get his head around, so telling him to look at the bigger picture really is not going to help him. <<<
Again a fair point, but the "bigger" picture I was trying to get him think about was the change in engine speed and the effect that would have on a mechanical HP pump ? Note, the first graph was taken at idle & the second was taken at a higher RPM.
Nothing more or less than that.
Also a big yes to those that thought of the possibility of a duel point control system being fitted, but I did not get that far
Mark Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft
Re: Hyundai Santa Fe
Posted by Eamonn Greene on March 23, 2014, 11:26 pm, in reply to "Re: Hyundai Santa Fe"
Yep, points taken on-board here. I over re-acted and I want to apologise to Mark. Mark has indeed helped me a few times in the past as well. I hope we are still friends Mark....I sincerely hope so.
Yeah, I forgot about the increase in engine speed, that is a very valid point.
on March 20, 2014, 1:39 pm, in reply to "
