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Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) - Fixed #

Posted by Glen Strachan on November 29, 2011, 11:38 am

Year of Manufacture *: 2003
Engine Size and Code *: 1.5 Dci
( Optional ) Scanner Used: KTS/ Pico/Clip

Having problems with a Kangoo.
It has trouble starting from cold, but is OK starting after that. Also when it reaches 3500 rpm on the road it brings on a light and gives a rail pressure codes although it drives fine. As soon as the rpm drops below 3000 the light goes out. But it only does this under load, you cant get the light to come on in the workshop.
It has had 4 injectors and a fuel filter and now the leak offs are all even.
Scoping the pressure regulator to see pulse duty and I suspect the pump, but would apreciate some advice.
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Idle speed

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Wot in workshop

I have a 2003 Megane 1.5 in today and scoped that as a comparison and the Kangoo seems to have a faster frequency

Megane at Idle

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Megane at WOT in the workshop

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Why would the Kangoo have a higher frequency at Idle ?

Re: Ren Kangoo 1.5 dci - rail pressure problems

Posted by Mark Robins <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1448' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 29, 2011, 11:51 am, in reply to "Ren Kangoo 1.5 dci - rail pressure problems"
Mark Robins

Can you scope the pressure sensor to see whats going on when the fault occurs? I had a similar problem and it turned out to be the pressure relief valve (if you have one). See archives "fuel pressure blues".

Mark

Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #

Posted by Dean Gammon <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3365' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 29, 2011, 6:28 pm, in reply to "Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #"

I had this problem on the very same vehicle, mine turned out to be the fuel filter, I fitted a genuine renault one and with that it sorted the problem,

Does it this one have a hand primer?

What is the fuel pressure while cranking from cold?

Dean

Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 29, 2011, 11:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #"

Hi Glen

Just picking up on your second set of captures. The Megane waveforms do indeed appear to display a different frequency in each example, compared to the Kangoo example, where the frequency is static & only the duty cycle is seen to alter.

Your waveforms are made slightly harder to appreciate, due to the different time base settings in each example. Although your second "Megane" set does appear to show two different frequencies at a 1ms/div setting.

Mark Carter has some interesting input on these dual control systems, where a mixture of duty cycle & frequency modulation are combined in a single method of operation.

Over to you Mark....

Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #

Posted by Glen Strachan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat1463' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 30, 2011, 8:42 am, in reply to "Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #"

I will have trouble scoping when the light comes on as my laptop battery is baaaad - really need to replace it.
It has had a new fuel filter , but not a genuine one. I will try that today. Rail pressure is in the 200's cold cranking
I have had to put the scope on different settings between the Kangoo and the Megane because if I kept it the same you couldnt see a complete cycle on the megane as it it so much slower, at idle the Kangoo is cycling every 0.5 ms and the Megane is at 2ms at idle and when revved up the Kangoo stays at 0.5ms and the Megane speeds up and matches the Kangoo at 0.5ms
I cant understand why the two are so different, I was expecting to see the duty cycle change , not the frequency ??

Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #

Posted by Dean Gammon <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3365' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 30, 2011, 1:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #"
Dean Gammon

It seems you have a high pressure fault. What's the fault code? Also what tests have you done on the low pressure side? And what were you readings/values?

Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #

Posted by Glen Strachan on November 30, 2011, 1:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #"
Message modified by board administrator November 30, 2011, 1:57 pm

Fault code
P0089 Rail pressure monitoring Maximum pressure exceeded
P0089 Rail pressure monitoring faulty
P0089 Rail pressure monitoring Minimum pressure not reached .

Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 30, 2011, 5:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #"

Hi Glen,

I will try to help if I can. We first need some live data to go on, the fault code needs pining down to which way the fuel pressure is deviating. Then we can look at what could cause the deviation.

Can you run the vehicle and look at live data for nominal or desired rail pressure along with actual rail pressure.
Graph the results.
Run the vehicle over the full speed and load range, this should tell us which way the fueling is going.

Next record the IMV duty cycle at the high pressure pump at the same time as the other two and we can look at the relationship of the data.

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 1, 2011, 10:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #"

Hi Glen

Don't be too pre occupied in trying to set your timebase, so that you can see the perfect cycle event on screen. Instead you might like to try putting 10 or 20 seconds on screen & winding up the sample rate, so that you can capture & then review the whole crime scene, instead of the flake of dandruff that you are seeing in your waveform. (not a criticism, just an analogy)

If my strange explanation doesn't make sense, then let me know. I will try to put something together to demonstrate.

Cheers

Fixed #

Posted by Glen Strachan on December 2, 2011, 10:53 am, in reply to "Re: Renault Kangoo 1.5 DCi 2003 - Rail pressure problems (waveforms) #"
Message modified by board administrator December 2, 2011, 1:59 pm

Well, new pump cured it, but maybe I was barking up the wrong tree with the scope traces.
The PWM has changed very slightly but it is still nothing like the Megane trace.
In the original Kangoo idle trace, the PWM was at around 35%. Now with the trace below (new pump) it has come down to 30% which is the same as the Megane even though the Megane is going at a different frequency
Thanks for all your help guys

This is idle with the new pump

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 2, 2011, 11:50 pm, in reply to "Fixed #"

Thank F**k for that Glen

That saves me from "putting something together" to demonstrate my point.

Glad you got a result.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Glen Strachan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat1463' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2011, 11:18 am, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"

Thanks Dave. I was getting a bit over excited as the 2 systems were the same year but operating at different speeds I assumed that was part of the fault. Now I look again , the megane although the same engine and the same year runs on the later CLIP programme where the Kangoo is on the earlier system.

Re: Fixed #

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on December 3, 2011, 11:41 am, in reply to "Re: Fixed #"
Mark Carter

Does that get me off the hook as well

Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

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