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Ford Transit TDCi 2006 - Codes P1211 & P0251 - Fixed #

Posted by Liam Hourihan on September 14, 2011, 11:40 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2006
Engine Size and Code *: tdci
( Optional ) Scanner Used: snap on modis
( Optional) Fault Codes: p1211 & p0251

I know there are a couple of these faults in the archives but there seems to be no fixes even though there may be a variety of fixes for these codes

So heres my symtoms and maybe some one can help me narrow down the fault.When driving the van, it drives perfectly untill you get to 3000rpm and under load then the van just dies, but it starts up straight away.
When it starts it has 280 bar rail pressure ,stationary position and max rev it has 1070 bar with no problem .But when driving under pressure and it hits 1570 bar the pressure just falls away and the van cuts out.It starts perfectly and drives untill its put under pressure again
On doing a leak-off test for 5min the fuel amounts are the same at 40ml, so I think I can eliminate the injectors.I bypassed the fuel filter but the symtoms are the same. I was told by Ford tecs that its may be a imv but just looking for some input as they are not 100% sure.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Mark Robins <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1448' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 15, 2011, 8:31 am, in reply to "Transit p1211 & p0251"
Mark Robins

It's possibly the pressure getting to high (hence the IMV isssue) and forcing into limp mode,do you have the ability to scope the IMV and pressure sensor to see what going on when it cuts out?

Mark

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Liam H <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1040' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 19, 2011, 12:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Liam Hourihan

Sorry for the slow response ,the van had left the garage and only cme back on Sat.This is only my second time scoping so please forgive if these are not to the high quality that is normally on this site.
The 4th scope is at tick over 800rpm
the 3rd is stationary position but at 2500rpm
The 2nd and 1st are at approx 3100rpm while driving and under load.One is a zoomed out scope and the other is just a normal capture.
The voltage seems to go up close to 4 volts and slightly over when it cuts out.Is this the max voltage that triggers limp home mode?

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Mark Robins <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1448' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 19, 2011, 5:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"

Hi Liam,
The pressure reg normally will reach 4volts + under load this indicates pressure increase in the rail, the (P)ulse (W)idth (M)odified signal should show max off time (signal is broadest at top of waveform) which looks about right in the waveforms shown. Normally the IMV defaults to full pressure when disconnected so in it's max off state = max flow hence pressure buildup. Is there only an IMV on this model? some have a pressure regulator and IMV (dual point control) single point control (IMV only) will have a pressure relief valve fitted. (see my post fuel pressure blues where I had a problem with this.
Did you take the 1st and 2nd waveforms when the fault occurred? We need to see what the PWM is doing at max pressure (is it calling for high or low pressure) if it's calling to lower the pressure then that means it cant control hence probably the IMV. Sorry for all the questions, I would expect the IMV to go max on to try to reduce the pressure if it's getting to high.

Mark

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Sam green <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3007' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 19, 2011, 8:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Sam Green

Have you got a closed rail pressure test kit? Sam

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Liam Hourihan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1040' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 20, 2011, 12:47 am, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Liam Hourihan

Thanks for the replies ,just to update on this, before it left the garage last week I replaced the imv as my friends in ford said that after the injectors .that was the only thing that gave trouble.I had not scoped the sensors previous to the fitting as i haven't too much experience with scoping.I now see this was a mistake on my behalf and want to make sure now that nothing else is fitted without justification.
To answer your questions .unfortunatly I don't have a closed rail pressure kit (will have to inquire about one -any recomendations).The first 2 scope captures are when it lost power .Since the imv has been fitted it doesn't seem to lose power completely as much ,but still untrustworthy as its a taxi.
I think I will have to inquire about some diesel diagnostic courses ,or some of F Masseys dvd,s.
Will try and get better scopes tomorrow as customer wants it back for some special school run.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Mark Robins <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1448' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 20, 2011, 8:14 am, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Mark Robins

Hi Liam,

Can you post KOEO pressure sensor volts, should be .5v this is a good viability check for the pressure sensor. If you can see (zoom in on)what the PWM signal is doing at the point of max pressure it will give a good idea if the ECU is trying to correct the problem or whether there is an ECU issue there.

Mark.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Liam Hourihan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1040' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 21, 2011, 12:19 am, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"

Had my friendly Ford dealer put it on their computer and we took it for a spin.The code po251 was the only code that came up.On Ford IDS live data the fuel rail pressure just falls away when put under load.
He felt its a supply problem and we by pass the filter both feed and return but still the same .He then suggests that I checked the pick up in the fuel tank as its mounted on 3 very small rubbers and if they break the pick up falls against the base of the tank- therefore restricts the flow.(a previous problem of his)On removing the tank the pick up was ok but I did notice that there was very small amounts of swarf in the tank.I then checked the return to the filter but the diesel was clear.Fuel pump starting to break up ?

On my scope when the van fails the rail pressure seems to maintain at 4v and doesn't seem to fall away.On my modis live data the rail pressure also just drops of when the van fails just like Fords live data.The live data doesnt seem to correlate with my scoping.My scoping wrong?
With all this checking I never checked the voltage for good viability but this van will be back soon to re-check.The capture here is just after it cuts out,the rail pressure seems to be ok 4v and the pump doesn't seem to be at max output,or am I just looking at it wrong.Will try and get a video of what happening rather than a scope capture.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by lee mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 22, 2011, 9:02 am, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Lee Mackintosh

One thing i remeber is just becaue you have a switching signal at imv doesn't actually mean its working (i found this out with a turbo control solenoid).

If you used an amps clamp wouldn't that be more helpful or are they not sensitive enough. New parts can still be faulty so don't rule out the imv as i'm sure i've read on here other have had faulty valves in the past.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Mark Robins <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1448' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 22, 2011, 4:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Mark Robins

The PWM signal looks as if it's calling for high pressure (max off time), Lee may have a point but the odds of having the same problem with a new IMV is remote. The fault code that logs is a favorite for being a faulty pump, but as you say why isn't the pressure sensor output correlating with the live data. It could be that live data is slow and therefore not keeping with the raw data of your scope, does the pressure signal drop at all when dieing out?.

Mark

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Lee mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 22, 2011, 5:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Lee Mackintosh

mark,

Wouldn't that be correct though as the FRP sensor is reporting highish voltage so the imv would react to this and up pump pressure.

I thought that the activation (ON time) for the IMV would be longer if it had a fault code set for over pressure so to force the valve open and lower pumping pressure.

I don't really know alot about diesels but i thought they had a pressure relief valve so as to return fuel back to pump incase of a high pressure state so would it be possible to measure the return flow to see if this is the case.

Liam,

With the MODIS can't you use custom setup and select only FRP sensor, IMV command so it will refresh at a faster rate, this way you can then compare live data to scope data.

thanks
lee

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by mark Robins <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1448' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 23, 2011, 1:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"

From the IMV's I've tested (and I'm not saying that this is correct across the board)the less on time the more pressure is deloped, most IMV's default to full pressure when disconnected. The last scope image looks like it's calling for more pressure. I guess it depends on what the ECU requires at that point, if the vehicle is accelerating hard at that point and the pressure is low (the opposite of the original post) then the pwm signal is demanding more pressure (although the FRP volts are not at; but approaching max press). If it's going into limp then I guess the pressure would drop dramatically as the live data is suggesting.
The question is it over pressuring or under? I recently had a problem with rail pressure and if you look at that post; I captured the correlation between FRP volts and PWM signal as the pressure drops off.

Mark

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Lee Mackintsoh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 23, 2011, 2:41 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Lee Mackintosh

Mark,

I agree with your thoughts which is waht i was trying to explain.

As i said would this have a pressure relief valve that is over active dropping rail pressure, so the imv will be off (max pressure) as scope image is suggesting as a reaction to the FRP sensor.

The imv is controlled by the FRP sensor isn't it? Could it be a fault with the APP sensor. Does this have any infulence of fuelling demands.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Carl Ford <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1822' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 23, 2011, 8:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Carl Ford

The fuel pressure relief valve can be very troublesome on these, I have a capture at work of a good van will post tommorow

Regards

Carl

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Liam Hourihan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1040' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 24, 2011, 9:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Liam Hourihan

Hi all and sorry for the delay in getting back.First of all the van was supposed to be in yesterday but was canceled until wed so further scoping has to wait.
When it comes back in ,Lee I will try the custom set up.I will also try and get a better capture, similar to Marks on his "fuel pressure blues" that shows an actually fall in pressure .
This van is 2006 and last of the older models and doesn't have a fuel pressure release valve.The newer models do have a press. release valve and its quite obvious at the end of the rail as its approx 1-2 inchs.I didn't check the APP as there is no fault code for it and I was always led to believe that there was 2 opposing sensor tracks internally and if they didn't mirror each other they would log a fault.
Sorry Mark if the the scopes in my first post were mis- leading.I thought they were the same except that I shortened the the sweep from 50ms to 2ms to allow a better view.I also didn't place the cursors correctly ,the voltage in the rail is the same and the Max-On time seems to be close.
With Marks "fuel pressure blues" the scope shows perfectly a drop in fuel rail pressure, therefore not enough diesel to fuel the injectors requirements and it shuts down.In my van what if my scopes are correct, -fuel pressure is at 4v and doesn't drop off,the imv is calling for more pressure ,can the ECU put the van into limp mode because the imv is looking for more pressure but the rail isn't registering an increase in pressure.The ECU sees there is a problem and then puts the van into limp mode.This is just a question ,while I wait for the van to come back for further testing.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 24, 2011, 10:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Lee Mackintosh

Liam,

have you done a snapshot movie file whilst driving the van, if you can post a movie file on here those of us that have a MODIS maybe able to use shopstream connect to play the movie back.

Not that i'm a scope expert but it may help as often other's can notice something at fault with a fresh pair of eyes (you know what i mean hopefully).

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Liam Hourihan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1040' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 24, 2011, 11:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Liam Hourihan

A snapshot video is what I wanted to take yesterday but will have to wait until the van reappears.No offense taken about a fresh set of eyes ,at this stage i would nearly get a block booking with specsavers for everyone who wishes to look at this problem to get a better view of whats happening.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Kevin Apps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2589' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 25, 2011, 12:29 am, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Kevin Apps

Liam

Quote from a better man than me.

NEW PUMP needed.

Kev.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Dave Hill <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2783' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 25, 2011, 1:01 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"

Hi Kev

It is hard to condemn the pump, when it is seen to develop 1570 bar.

OK the pump speed is high at this point, which is a massive factor. What we need to know is, if the IMV command is trimming + or - at the point of faulting.

Personally I would be challenging the pump whilst cranking & assessing its capability (start disabled).

This may have been done already, I have only skimmed over the thread, sorry!

Cheers

Dave

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Kevin Apps <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2589' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on September 25, 2011, 2:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Kevin Apps

Hi Dave.

Now if the man was Dave 01. Would you believe him ?

Kev.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Hi Kev

It doesn't matter to me if the Messiah himself tells it...... I still need to verify things for myself!

I am not good with Forum nick names, so I wouldn't know if Dave 01 is David Massey or David Beckham. If I had my way, then everyone would post in their own name, with a photo attached.

Perhaps Dave 01 could justify his diagnosis?

All the best

Dave

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Liam Hourihan on October 31, 2011, 9:37 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"

Its been ovoer a month since this van was last delt with and my appoligies for the delay in responding to all those who contributed to the post the last time.As I said the van is a taxi being used for school runs, so its hard to get it to work on.
The customer called last week to arrange to get it fixed next week during mid-term break.While it was in I tried getting a movie of whats happening when it dies out.
I think I could have done a better job on the ivm sweep but I was under pressure and next week hopefully I will be able to get better captures of what a good van should look like.I would like to get to the end of this problem and put a "fixed" to this post once and for all.

Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?61ynoe4osfaih

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Lee Mackintosh <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1348' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on October 31, 2011, 10:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Lee Mackintosh

I've downloaded the link but not sure if i've mis-understood the image but it appears that the IMV isn't being switched to ground properly especially as the fuel rail sensor voltage increases.

Also i find it easier to use a faster sweep time as this way to can see more detail and beable to zoom out.

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by Liam Hourihan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1040' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 8, 2011, 11:00 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"

Finally this van has arrived to get work done.Thre are 3 captures attached ,the first is challeging the pump with the injectors and imv disconnected.The other 2 shows whats happenning at approx 3000rpm with the imv and rail pressure.It seems to me that the imv is turned on(to reduce pressure)at about 3.84 volts on the rail and then the fuel pressure gradually reduces .Even though the injectors are ok on the leak back test ,I wonder is one faulty causing high pressure so I have taken them out today for testing .I will post the results in a few day when I get them back.

Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?rr5t2ubyibfs1

Re: Transit p1211 & p0251

Posted by UKAT2983 <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2983' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on November 9, 2011, 7:24 am, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Mark Stephenson

Just a quick old school test, pull the electrical plug on the injector & if it doesnt cut the engine then your off that injector ! Had the same codes same trouble on one of these & after hours of scoping etc this was how i found the problem. Worth a try !

Fixed #

Posted by Liam Hourihan on December 7, 2011, 10:58 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251"
Message modified by board administrator December 11, 2011, 1:46 pm

Finally its fixed.It came in at the end of November and the customer was told by the dealers that they haven't replaced many pumps so he decided to the the injectors checked.
I did what I was told and took the injectors off and sent them off to a authorized Delphi diesel shop.Two days later a Representative from the shop rang and told me that they were not contaminated but one injector totally failed and another two failed on stage 2 of testing and the last one was ok.I decided to get all 4 reconditioned as this van was starting to get the better of me.I put the reconditioned injectors in ,went for a spin and it was the SAME as before.I rang the delpi shop and told him the van was the same and all the tests I had done .He said that it more that likely was that the pump can generate sufficient pressure but cant maintain it,something about its internal hydraulics heads and that it wasn't the normal fault associated with these pumps.He never answered why the van ran ok up to 3000rpm with 3 faulty injectors.
So last Monday we fitted a new pump from Ford and its flying now.It felt like Christmas had come early to finally see the back of the van.
Thanks for all yer input and sorry it took so long,this was a job that was measured in months rather than hours.Is there a monthly rate

Fixed #

Posted by Dave Hill on December 11, 2011, 2:16 pm, in reply to "Fixed #"
Message modified by board administrator December 16, 2011, 1:23 pm

Nice one Liam

Did you manage to take time to get some "post repair" data? Your Inlet Metering Valve duty would be useful to note.

I don't know if you picked up on my previous post, where I included a waveform, that demonstrates the high pressure pump performance?

This test will only show you if your pump is good, but it will not tell you if the pump is bad. If you were to witness reduced pressure development, then you can't just assume that the pumps is at fault. You have to go back to the drawing board & consider which other factors might be the cause

Here is an example that shows poor pressure development......

Although the pressure development is low, there is still some valuable information to be learned from the trace.

You don't need a scope to gain this info. Live data shows it & if your scantool has data graphing functionality then even better. Serial data is usually more convenient, as you can see how the IMV is commanded, which will tell you if the PCM is "trimming" or "correcting" for some reason.

What are your thoughts about the company that condemned the injectors? I wonder if they were truly out of range, or if the firm that looked at them where a little over zealous?

Hi Kev

It seems that Dave was right after all. It would have been nice if he (or you) could add a little, about the reasoning behind his diagnosis. It isn't really too helpful when someone posts "needs a new pump" but doesn't offer any further detail.

Cheers for now.

Fixed #

Posted by Liam H on December 13, 2011, 11:32 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251 FIXED"
Message modified by board administrator December 16, 2011, 1:23 pm

Hi Dave
I carried out that test on the pump on a previous post,you can only view it with mediafire.It is very similar to your first capture the rail pressure goes from .5v up to 4.5v.
The Delpi rep said it could build up the pressure while doing that test while no injectors was using fuel ,but the problem arises when the pump has to maintain max pressure while the injectors are injecting fuel.
As for the question about their diagnosis of the injectors I don't know but just in case I bought the pump directly from Ford ,there wasn't much of a difference in the price.
Out of curiosity I would also like to know how Kevin /Dave 01 knew it was a pump .Again thanks for all yer input.

Fixed #

Posted by Dave Hill on December 15, 2011, 11:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Transit p1211 & p0251 FIXED"
Message modified by board administrator December 16, 2011, 1:24 pm

Hi Liam

I don't have any way of looking at your waveform....

>>Fuel pump press test (Ozzy van).LSS<<

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