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Citroen Relay 2.2 HDi 2003 - Intermittent cutting out, code P0191 - Fixed #

Posted by John Womack on April 21, 2010, 5:29 pm

Year of Manufacture *: 2003
Engine Code or CC *: 2.2 hdi
( Optional ) ECU Type: bosch
( Optional ) Scanner Used: texa/bosch/autodiagnos

fault code p0191

intermitatly cuts out or goes into limp mode
when cuts out will not start for 20/30 seconds then ok.when running fuel pressure ok.no feed to low pressure pump when dead. supply low pressure pump permanent, still cuts out & loggs fault code.ecu tests ok. suspect ecu???? any sugestions sensible ones only.

thanks

john

Re: citroen relay

Posted by Tony Attwood <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=ukat3025' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 21, 2010, 6:47 pm, in reply to "citroen relay"

Hi John,
Is it possible to capture rail pressure sensor readings when vehicle cuts out/limp home?
I.e. is voltage high, low or loosing feed or ground.
Initial thoughts are system shutting down due to incorrect fuel pressure !!! ???

Cheers, Tony.

Re: citroen relay

Posted by Mark Carter <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1428' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 21, 2010, 11:15 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"

Hi John, can you clarify,
"any suggestions, sensible ones only."

as I have a couple of ideas but would hate to hurt your feelings by posting something wrong.

regards Mark.

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: citroen relay

Posted by Michael Whitworth <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5568' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 22, 2010, 7:13 am, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
Mike Whitworth - Administrator

>>>>as I have a couple of ideas but would hate to hurt your feelings by posting something wrong<<<<

M.O.M. Miserable Old Manc

Re: citroen relay

Posted by john womack <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2611' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 22, 2010, 8:18 am, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
John Womack

hi all

sensible way forward for repair ie done ecu for simlar problem before.

not cures all problems with a rag & a gallon off petrol.

ecu tested at ecu technologis tests ok.
fault only happens on road will not cut out in workshop. fuel pressure read right compaired with expected readings then just cuts & will not start, unable to locate donor ecu at sensible cost,new ecu 7 weeks wait from bosch.

thanks

john

Re: citroen relay

Posted by steve fisher <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT1920' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 22, 2010, 8:39 pm, in reply to "citroen relay"
Steve Fisher

John can you get it to fault under load ie hard acceleration up a hill

Steve

Re: citroen relay

Hi John, what CR system is fitted to the vehicle, CP1 or CP3?, as the control strategies are completely different and your diagnostic route will depend on which system is fitted.

Regards Mark.

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: citroen relay

Posted by john wardrobe <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5342' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 22, 2010, 10:55 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
John Wardrobe

Hello, could well be an injector with heavy back leak higher up the pressure range, you dont catch this in live data due to the refresh lag of serial data. try a bottle test but at high idle this can show the culprit sometimes or scope the pressure sensor output to see realtime voltage.
cheers
john

Re: citroen relay

Posted by john womack <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2611' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 23, 2010, 8:21 am, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
John Womack

thanks for your responses

cuts out on acceleration mainly.

cp 1 system fitted

high pressure pump reads 0 to 8 bar when cut out with low pressure pump give permanent supply.
fuel pressure regulator seal replaced , third piston cut off valve check for swarf.customers says new pump fitted 3 months ago.

surely if pressure fault was problem ecu would not shut down for 20-30 seconds,would it not reset on key on key off.
also checked feeds & earths to ecu

thanks for your time & thoughs

john

Re: citroen relay

Can you plot the duty cycle of the DRV, the rail pressure and the Rpm before and at the point of failure?

Regards Mark

Modern cars, Its all wizardry and witchcraft

Re: citroen relay

Posted by Sean Mc Gettigan <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT5291' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 23, 2010, 8:37 am, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
Sean McGettigan

Hi John,

'surely if pressure fault was problem ecu would not shut down for 20-30 seconds,would it not reset on key on key off.'

The ECU WILL do this following a high pressure fault. If you clear the fault code when it cuts out the engine will start as normal again.

Regards
Sean

Re: citroen relay

Posted by john womack <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2611' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 23, 2010, 10:00 am, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
John Womack

waiting for ecu to be returned shall do more testing when this arrives ,let you know how i get on .

tahnks

john

Re: citroen relay

Posted by Steve Fisher on April 23, 2010, 9:58 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
Message modified by board administrator April 26, 2010, 2:08 pm

John what extra testing are you going to do when the ecu comes back??

From your posts you didnt do much testing , are you a main dealer??

If this was my job i would check live data in the enviroment that it fails ie under load on the road under hard acceleration

First i would check the LP supply and return pressures and if its all ok then look at the HP fuel pressure , if it starts to drop and the fuel pressure regulator ocr/duty cycle climbs then the regulator is doing its job [trying to increase FRP] then check injector leak off in the same enviroment , you will be amazed

Steve

Re: citroen relay

Posted by johnwomack <iframe src='https://members.boardhost.com/ukautotalk8/info/user=UKAT2611' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on April 23, 2010, 11:01 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
John Womack

tests carried out

low pressure flow & pressure test ok
high pressure test ok
ignition bypassed
fuel pump relay bypassed
fuel pump amps check
fuel tank & pump checked for contamination
fuel pressure regulator seal checked then replaced
third piston shut off valve checked
live data observed looks ok
injector leak back test at idle ok
ecu tested
refitted to day
injector leak back test at 2000 rpm ok
injector leak back test on fast accereration & decelleration no3 injector failed
new injector to be fitted next week , hope thats all it is.
shall report when road tested
thanks for your input . we are an independent garage.

regards

john

Fixed #

Posted by john womack on April 28, 2010, 8:20 pm, in reply to "Re: citroen relay"
Message modified by board administrator April 29, 2010, 2:16 pm

thanks for your responses , good pointers in the correct direction.never seen an injector fail in this way. sorry for not listing all my origional testing but did not want to bore you.

excessive leak back on nos 3 injector only when accellerating then decellerating .

thanks

john

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