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you dismissed another argument he made somewhere else about the IHRA definition, which isnt mentioned in the book. That is the whole point, you jumped to the conversation you wanted to have an ignored the wider one about antisemitism.
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I dismissed Baddiel’s interpretation of antisemitism and before you called me racist listed three people whose thoughts on antisemitism I prefer.
Your reaction proved my point. Previous Message
Antisemitism has been around for thousands of years, millions have died in its name, you automatically and incorrectly jumped to the conclusion that a book about it must be about that new definition. You straight away reached for Israel bashing.
So he doesn't discuss isreal in the book, he discusses the dismissal of antisemitism as a real issue, that is what you did. Previous Message
You accused me of antisemitism for that very thing and stated that it was exactly what his book is about.
What part of that can’t you understand?
Baddiel’s interpretation lends itself to silencing and smearing critics of Israel. You have proved this point. Previous Message
That cross over between criticising israeli and antisemitism is hardly mentioned. It isn't the book you think it is. Previous Message
The promotion of it and what it legitimizes as succinctly as I could have. I appreciate however, that that’s a lot to read into in one simple line. That’s what happens when you’ve had similar conversations a number of times I suppose and for that I apologise.
But, I think you were a bit offended by my dismissal and knee jerked based on his book, which is exactly what my comment was about. Previous Message
And started talking about Israel, that is the whole point. Previous Message
And state that my comment was a perfect example of what Baddiel discusses in his book?
He doesn’t discuss it in the book and yet your knee jerk response was to label me an antisemite based on what you read in his book.
Do you see how this proves my point and not yours? Previous Message
Its not mentioned in the book. As i said lots of examples in there that have #### all to do with I Israeli, but it's the only thing you want to talk about. Previous Message
His interpretation is based on the new antisemitism. The new antisemitism is pushed by the Israeli government - a stated policy - in order to silence its critics. It is now being used to silence dissent in UK universities. Baddiel’s book popularizes the new antisemitism and lends it legitimacy, making it easier for Israel’s critics to be silenced, demonized, forced from their employment, etc.
Your reaction here is a prime example. Previous MessagePrevious Message
You’ve labelled my comment, critical of Israel and the interpretation that state pushes, which Baddiel also adheres to, as antisemitic. I have no qualms with calling out the brutal apartheid state of Israel - nobody should - and I won’t be silenced by Baddiel’s interpretation which many other Jews, some in a far better position to judge, disagree with.
I know he says he doesn’t care about Israel and I’ve no reason to doubt him, but he bases his interpretation on the new antisemitism. I’m pretty sure the first time I heard him espouse it was on some book show about 15 years ago where he claimed that calling Peter Mandelson ‘evil’ or ‘demonic’ was antisemitism. I think he was on with Jonathan Freedland who agreed with him. #### that.
I’m sorry if stating facts about Israel upsets people but it’s not antisemitism. Clumsiness? Maybe. But when weighed up against the daily abuses Palestinians suffer it’s hard to care that much to be honest.
Baddiel is not the arbiter of what constitutes antisemitism and neither is Israel. Previous Message
Talks about antisemtism that can in no way be conflated with anti israeli sentiments. Try to view this in the contexts of the lefts/progressives sensitivity perhaps over sensitivity to offending groups and then look at the clumsiness it deals with Jews. Previous Message
But I can’t accept that apology.
My issue is that you have read washed up comedian Baddiel’s interpretation of antisemitism - one that has been actual Israeli policy to push for some years now - and appear to believe it to be both accurate and concrete. Yes, I can actually see why you would label my comment as ‘unconscious racism’, because in Baddiel’s (and Israel’s) antisemitism parameters it would fit the bill. [To clarify, I’m not suggesting Baddiel works for Israel, just that he has adopted the idea of the new antisemitism discussed below].
I’ve no idea if Baddiel mentions it but this interpretation is referred to as ‘new antisemitism’. And as much as the BoD, JLM, CAA, CST, etc, etc would like it, this is far from a settled, agreed interpretation. The continuing IHRA dramas are evidence of this fact.
Brian Klug - someone who could easily be described as an antisemitism expert - wrote about the new antisemitism back in 2004 and it’s pretty prescient for the UK right now:
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/myth-new-anti-semitism/
The line that Klug talks about where anti-Zionism becomes antisemitism is pretty difficult to ascertain. What it usually seems to boil down to is a subjective opinion. I could say that Israel is a brutal apartheid state that employs a self-admitted policy of blurring this line as much as possible in order to silence its critics, and Baddiel may claim I’m antisemitic. I could also say that this same Israel employs a powerful lobby in the UK and is linked to parliamentary parties and various Jewish civil and charitable UK groups, and Baddiel may claim I’m antisemitic. Actually, all of that is factual. It’s perhaps the next step though where critics really approach the line: linking the Israel lobby with actions taken by parliamentary parties/individuals and civil/charitable Jewish organizations. This is where Bristol university professor, David Miller, is at the moment. Miller’s expertise is in tracking power networks and a few years ago he turned his attention to Israel’s UK lobby. Ever since he has been hounded and attacked, and right now there is mounting pressure on the uni to sack him. There are facts there involving funding and close relationships with the Israeli embassy and intelligence services but it really is an area where only the brave publicly step. Going there invites an onslaught and also the danger of actually drifting into genuine antisemitism.
This is why I posted my reply to your original Baddiel comment. I’m not trying to justify myself and I’m certainly not excusing myself - I stand by it and would post it again without hesitation - however, in the spirit of contrition, this is what informs my comment. Previous Message
To call you a racist went too far. I stand by your post showed unconscious racism and that it isn't worth discussing as you clearly can't see why. But I don't believe showing unconscious racism necessarily makes someone a racist. So sorry for that, like I said it was too strong. Previous Message
You go off and read Brian Klug, Tony Lerman, Nira Yuval Davis and David Feldman. Then you can come back and call me a racist.
In the meantime, I’ll refer to you as an absolute ####wit. Previous Message
No thanks, Priti Patel is a bitch. Previous Message
Should be easy for you since you’ve read the great Baddiel.
Does he mention the JVL or any ‘wrong jews’ in his book? Previous Message
Your response to my post was racist. Had I been talking about any other ism, you would not have responded like that. I said there is no point continuing because I know you just don't see the racism, the book might make you see it, but I know I can't so what's the point. Previous Message
On reflection, cannot.
You don’t get to label someone a racist and say, ‘we’ll leave it at that’.
What other books have you read on the subject? Who else informs your opinion? I won’t read Baddiel’s book because he’s an out and out twat. I have happily read plenty of other stuff on the subject so you’ll have to excuse me for not trusting the words of the eminent scholar, David ####ing Baddiel. Previous MessagePrevious Message
Lets leave it at that, I don't think any more discussion will get us anywhere, you are too far gone. Read the book. Previous MessagePrevious Message
and manimal had responded like that, it wouldn't go down well, this will be ignored, Jews Don't Count. Previous MessagePrevious Message
was all about, should read, Jews Don't Count by David Baddiel. Short and to the point. Its not really about Labor but antisemitism more generally.
losing just a little more faith every day, and credibility too apparently
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on March 6, 2021, 4:07 pm, in reply to "