on 4/20/2023, 10:50 am
Here's my last post, which contains his notations for fatales at the upper reaches from that wacky list of 25:
1/Veda Pierce, MILDRED PIERCE 14 (she'll get 15 points when she grows up)
2/Norma Desmond, SUNSET BLVD.<---can she plead the insanity defense?
3/Phyllis Dietrichson, DOUBLE INDEMNITY 15
4/Annie Laurie Starr, GUN CRAZY 14 (lost a point for being sympathetic at end)
5/Gilda, GILDA
6/Laura Hunt, LAURA
7/Kitty Collins, THE KILLERS<---not a femme fatale at all?*
8/Kathie Moffit, OUT OF THE PAST 15
9/Brigid O'Shaughnessy, THE MALTESE FALCON<---not a femme fatale at all?*
10/Alice Reed, WOMAN IN THE WINDOW
11/Vera, DETOUR 14 (Al was doomed with or without her)
12/Elsa Bannister, LADY FROM SHANGHAI 14
13/Cora Smith, THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE 15
14/Ellen Berendt Harland, LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN<---not a femme fatale at all?*
15/Rose Loomis, NIAGARA <---"just" a cheating wife...
16/Kitty March, SCARLET STREET 13 (also the victim of a homme fatale)
17/Laurel Gray, IN A LONELY PLACE
18/Sherry Peatty, THE KILLING 13 (George was an easy target)
19/Helen Grayle aka Velma Valento, MURDER MY SWEET <---not a femme fatale at all?*
20/Jane Palmer, TOO LATE FOR TEARS 14
21/Madeleine Elster aka Judy Barton, VERTIGO<---femme fatale as woman-in-distress...oddly, lowers the score because "meta-peril" is not "true peril"??
22/Myra Leeds, PLEASE MURDER ME<---not a femme fatale at all?*
23/Debby Marsh, THE BIG HEAT
24/Lilith Ritter, NIGHTMARE ALLEY (1947)<---not a femme fatale at all?*
25/Coral Chandler, DEAD RECKONING <---not a femme fatale at all?*
Note the paucity of 50s films (shown in bold type).
Characters w/o any annotation--either a number score from Owen or a query about their status from me--are clearly NOT femmes fatales (though Gilda presents as one). That's five out of the twenty-five.
So are the ones annotated with my query not FF's, or are they ones whose overall intensity score simply doesn't rise to the level of a "13"? Please clarify, and from there we should be able to continue a bit further...
Reworking that list to show ChiO's enumerations (where they're extant) and what's listed for these films in the "noir-o-meter" database...
...and keeping in mind that the scores attempt to encompass the level of peril/danger/misdirection/emotional turmoil-chaos unleashed in the film by a major character, here we go. Noir-o-meter values shown below each title in bold type with a brief annotation:
1/Veda Pierce, MILDRED PIERCE 14 (she'll get 15 points when she grows up)
Noir-o-meter grades this aspect only at 9--Veda is not quite central enough to the story to be as big a force as she might be in a different film.
2/Norma Desmond, SUNSET BLVD.<---can she plead the insanity defense?
Another 9--just shooting a guy is not enough to be at the top of the pack; Norma is sick and deluded, while Veda is sick and spoiled.
3/Phyllis Dietrichson, DOUBLE INDEMNITY 15
Absolutely, definitely a 15. Though she almost gets sympathetic at the end herself, which is downright dismaying. Won't dock her for it, though...
4/Annie Laurie Starr, GUN CRAZY 14 (lost a point for being sympathetic at end)
Yes, docked a point for showing (or speaking some lines that lead us to sense) self-awareness of her murderous malady.
5/Gilda, GILDA
The film scores a 13 for this element, but not for Gilda, who is about a "5" as a good-bad girl masquerading as a tramp--the balance of the score comes from George Macready: the noir-o-meter combines "fatal(e)" functions when they occur in the same film
6/Laura Hunt, LAURA
The film scores a 9, but for Waldo Lydecker, not Laura. Waldo is too effete to rank as a true ruthless type, plus he loses 2-3 points for shooting the wrong girl.
7/Kitty Collins, THE KILLERS<---not a femme fatale at all?*
We see Kitty as one of the sex bomb dangereuses in noir, functionally a 14 even though she's not quite as front & center in the film as others. Certainly she destroys the Swede, and is ready/willing to do the same to Riordan.
8/Kathie Moffit, OUT OF THE PAST 15
Oh, yes.
9/Brigid O'Shaughnessy, THE MALTESE FALCON<---not a femme fatale at all?*
As some may recall, the subject of a debate about "hard" and "soft" femme fatales that bordered on the ridiculous; Brigid may love Sam, but she's still damn dangerous--and Sam knows it. Docked for showing some genuine feelings, but the score is still a solid 12.
10/Alice Reed, WOMAN IN THE WINDOW
Sexy in her brittle way, deceitful and manipulative, but not up to snuff in the blackmail or double-crossing department. Scored a 10, but I could be persuaded to drop that down a bit further...
11/Vera, DETOUR 14 (Al was doomed with or without her)
Maybe, but she does more in 20-some minutes than anyone. She's a 15.
12/Elsa Bannister, LADY FROM SHANGHAI 14
Noir o meter sees enough self-destructiveness in the "peril triangle" with LFS to drop off a point. Maybe there needs to be a "nest of vipers?" element that checks off for 5 points if you have three or more baddies operating simultaneously...
13/Cora Smith, THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE 15
As presented in this film, Cora is just sex candy, and her nastier side doesn't really appear until the trial phase. There are also plausibility issues here: she and Frank could have just left, but they had a sex-power thing which makes their scheming more stupid than it should've been. Noir-o-meter says 11...
14/Ellen Berendt Harland, LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN<---not a femme fatale at all?*
Listed as a full "15".
15/Rose Loomis, NIAGARA <---"just" a cheating wife...
Marilyn is a frisky gal who married the wrong guy, bad enough to try to get him bumped off, but too long on sex and too short on competence: much the same as POSTMAN, methinks, and thus also an 11...
16/Kitty March, SCARLET STREET 13 (also the victim of a homme fatal)
12 points divided between Duryea and Bennett, who combine into something lethal but are lacking the true killer instinct.
17/Laurel Gray, IN A LONELY PLACE
11 points, but for Bogart's bravura ability to be nutty enough to undercut his own innocence, not for Grahame, who was more fatale-like in real life than Laurel Grey is in the film...
18/Sherry Peatty, THE KILLING 13 (George was an easy target)
Docked a couple of extra points for being more peripheral than the usual fatale type--the N-O-M says 11.
19/Helen Grayle aka Velma Valento, MURDER MY SWEET <---not a femme fatale at all?*
A good warmup for her role in BORN TO KILL: score it as a 13, docked a point for all those "East coast vocal mannerisms."
20/Jane Palmer, TOO LATE FOR TEARS 14
Currently have it as a 15, but I think I agree with you--more "elocution" issues in the early going might mean a lop-off of a point. Pretty darned nasty in the second half of the film, though!
21/Madeleine Elster aka Judy Barton, VERTIGO<---femme fatale as woman-in-distress...oddly, lowers the score because "meta-peril" is not "true peril"??
Because of how it's revealed, and due to the parallel evaluation above, which shows how "noir" and "thriller" can both mesh and separate in the same film, the overall score here is 10: 8 for Elster himself, 5 for the deployment of Madeleine, and -3 for Judy being sicker in her own way than Scotty.
22/Myra Leeds, PLEASE MURDER ME<---not a femme fatale at all?*
Pretty nasty, actually, and damn it but Lansbury looks pretty damn alluring in that bathing suit. Currently at 11 in the N-O-M, could be cajoled down to 10.
23/Debby Marsh, THE BIG HEAT
Debby only becomes a fatale when her looks are spoiled; that's worth maybe a point. The other nine that the film generates: 5 for Marvin's sick thug, 4 for Jeanette Nolan's spider woman.
24/Lilith Ritter, NIGHTMARE ALLEY (1947)<---not a femme fatale at all?*
Stan gets 5 points for his handsome sociopathy and Icarus-ness, and Lilith adds nine point for her cerebral ruthlessness. A proper remake would have emphasized the sex between these two more and left out the cheesy queasy del Toro cliches; that would have actually followed the book, which Goulding couldn't quite do due to the Production Code. Nasty peril and payback on both sides of the gender ledger adds up to 14 anyway...
25/Coral Chandler, DEAD RECKONING <---not a femme fatale at all?*
Liz is kinda wooden, and there's that "elocution" thing again, but Coral Chandler is a bad one nonetheless. Currently at 13, could be persuaded that's she's a 12--very similar to Brigid O'Shaughnessy.
So there you have it, all the heavy lifting and number-crunching. See what you think!!
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