on 2/28/2023, 7:40 am
Posted by Don Malcolm on 11/18/2019, 11:25 am, in reply to "Re: Twitter Top Ten Poll--40 Ballots Counted"
There are many potential reasons to discount this data, but I think we should take it on face value that "Top Ten" means pretty much what anyone would take it to mean.
With a data set of close to 200 to be collated, I think we'll find out some interesting things about the reach of film noir viewing that's occurred over the length of years from our Top 25 poll (which could be re-calculated to match this data set, and would produce somewhat different results in such an accounting than what emerged from the approach to voting that was taken).
My hunch is that the public at large (or a subset of same that is active on Twitter) is going to be about at the same point of "noir awareness" as what was manifested in our 2005 BB population. I think it will be interesting to see how a much larger voting group today matches up with our much smaller and somewhat more controlled sample from nearly fifteen years ago.
It will also be interesting to see how many films get included in such a "list your Top Ten" approach. That's why I've provided a running tally (101 films mentioned after 40 list collated) to see if that ratio holds up as we go along. I'm thinking it may slow down a bit, as that would mean that folks would at least give a single inclusion for close to 500 noirs in 200 ballots (I think it will wind up being closer to 300).
Then there are questions about time frames (early/late 40s, early/late 50s), etc. that can be examined in comparison to what we saw in our 2005 sample.
Your point about films seen at particularly defining moments is one to be noted, but keep in mind that there are many such lists (Top 10, Top 20, Top 25, etc.) available for neophytes to use as a way into film noir, and the lists that they create later may remain inordinately influenced from such a source or sources. But films are much more available to the neophyte now than was the case in 2005; that fact suggests to me that your caveat is not one we need to be inordinately concerned about.
Let's not fall into the habit of what is going on in the media-saturated world and pre-judge results that aren't even complete. We need to stay aware of what the "mainstream" is within this sub-world, and the data set here allows for a way to do that. Granted, it's not perfect, but it's not so fatally flawed as to be dismissed out of hand. Patience, grasshopper!
Here are the results after 60 ballots:
35 Double Indemnity
25 Laura
25 Out of the Past
24 In a Lonely Place
23 Maltese Falcon, The
20 Big Sleep, The
18 Touch of Evil
16 Gun Crazy
16 Third Man, The
15 Murder My Sweet
15 Sunset Blvd.
14 Killers, The 46
13 Big Heat, The
12 Killing, The 56
12 Kiss Me Deadly
12 Pickup on South Street
11 Detour
10 Asphalt Jungle
9 Gilda
9 Night and the City
8 Criss Cross
8 Leave Her to Heaven
8 Nightmare Alley
8 Scarlet Street
7 Dark Passage
7 Narrow Margin, The
The ratio of films mentioned to ballots is decreasing: 137 films now mentioned after 60 ballots (2.28) down from 2.52 (101 on 40 ballots).
Posted by Solomon on 11/18/2019, 12:39 pm, in reply to "Comparing the public in 2019 to BB in 2005--plus results after 60 ballots"
Edited by Solomon on 11/18/2019, 12:54 pm
After years and years of publicity, multiple books, film festivals, articles, including TCM's multiple showings of most that are on this list, dvd releases, video releases, it's no surprise to see some familiar names popping up.
This raises the question of what films that are at least as good as those listed but not receiving many votes, what of those films have been less publicized and therefore don't make the cut. Top ten is influenced by publicity and that term doesn't necessarily mean top in quality.
Inferences depend upon the populations from which you are sampling. What was the BB population, and what's the Twitter one?
80 ballots and counting
Posted by Don Malcolm on 11/18/2019, 2:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Comparing the public in 2019 to BB in 2005--plus results after 60 ballots"
I am not surprised by what we're seeing, save for a few small details. I figured the exercise would mostly confirm what I thought would be the case.
My sense is that we reflected a good bit of the popular opinion that had coalesced in 2005. (Remember that TCM, and before it, AMC in its earlier, more TCM-like incarnation, had been broadcasting many of these films for close to twenty years: the voters here reflected a good bit of that road to familiarity with film noir in the "pre-Czar years").
Here is the Twitter gang after 80 ballots (approximately three times the sample size of the Top 25 poll). Our poll results are show in (parentheses).
47 Double Indemnity (#3)
36 Out of the Past (#1)
34 Maltese Falcon, The (#7)
31 Laura (#26)
29 In a Lonely Place (#12)
24 Big Sleep, The (#11)
22 Third Man, The (#51)
22 Touch of Evil (#8)
20 Murder My Sweet (#24)
20 Sunset Blvd. (#25)
19 Detour (#17)
19 Gun Crazy (#6)
18 Killers, The 46 (#5)
16 Killing, The 56 (#10)
16 Kiss Me Deadly (#15)
16 Pickup on South Street (#26)
14 Asphalt Jungle (#4)
14 Big Heat, The (#20)
12 Criss Cross (#2)
12 Gilda (#31)
12 Nightmare Alley (#14)
12 Scarlet Street (#21)
10 Night of the Hunter (#80)
9 Dark Passage (#83)
9 Lady From Shanghai (#65)
9 Leave Her to Heaven (#74)
9 Night and the City (#14)
9 Set-Up, The (#19)
NOTES: 154 films mentioned on these 80 ballots. New films joining the list are slowing down even more markedly than I had surmised would be the case.
Our support for THE THIRD MAN differs because many folks left off all foreign noirs in 2005 as a matter of voting principle.
Highest rated films from the Noir Top 25 list not in the current "Top 28" from the Twitter poll:
#9 D.O.A (bubbling under)
#16 Raw Deal
#19 The Narrow Margin (bubbling under)
#22 Born to Kill
#23 Postman Always Rings Twice (bubbling under)
Posted by ChiBob on 11/18/2019, 2:48 pm, in reply to "80 ballots and counting"
Bringing up the rear here -
From the Idiot Child in the WH, with his scurrying little orange digits on Twitter, to the average Twitter user, I’ve always considered Twitter a woefully poor way to make a statement of substance. I have somewhat of a love/hate relationship with social media in general, but mostly hate.
With that said, my top 20 noirs pretty much still correspond to the poll from 2005. Twitter ranks LAURA up to a ridiculously high level, imo. The “best” noir often can be partially based on the fact that our favorite actors and actresses are in it. That’s why I have somewhat of a hard time ranking films with Lizabeth Scott and Glenn Ford very high, whereas Bogey is almost everyone’s favorite. Looking at the 2005 poll I’d shove SCARLET STREET ahead of THE BIG HEAT, but otherwise that’s a pretty damn fine group of films from 2005. Of course, imo, the greatest noir, if not the greatest film ever, is VERTIGO, which is in a class by itself.
Posted by Don Malcolm on 11/18/2019, 4:03 pm, in reply to "Re: 80 ballots and counting"
I think lists are probably the most substantial thing that can actually happen on Twitter, FWIW. If enough folks respond with details (and not just responding to a poll), substance can be simulated (up to a point) via the "cumulative effect."
LAURA has more glamour than most noirs, and it's the one that uses the portrait motif for romance and necrophilia simultaneously--it has many neat little soupçons of kinkiness that appeal to folks who get a little turn-on from having that type of stuff in a Hays Code film. Our group in 2005 was less impressed with all that, which may explain the difference.
Oddly, there are a number of Hitchcock films listed in the Twitter group ballots, including some of which that most of us do not include as noirs (DIAL M, REAR WINDOW) and others that we do (STRANGERS ON A TRAIN, NOTORIOUS, THE WRONG MAN, SHADOW OF A DOUBT)--but, thus far, nobody has put VERTIGO on their Top Ten noir list. (Two of the voters who eventually got crosswise with some of us had it in their Top Five in the 2005 poll, which is primarily how it wound up at #44.)
100 ballots...
Posted by Don Malcolm on 11/20/2019, 11:17 am, in reply to "Re: 80 ballots and counting"
Will probably halt here, it appears there are abut 30 more in the Twitter thread. I might look at the dates in a generic way a bit later on...
168 films mentioned across the 100 lists.
60 Double Indemnity (#3)
47 Out of the Past (#1)
39 Maltese Falcon, The (#7)
37 Laura (#26)
33 In a Lonely Place (#12)
31 Touch of Evil (#8)
29 Third Man, The (#51)
28 Big Sleep, The (#11)
25 Gun Crazy (#6)
24 Sunset Blvd. (#25)
23 Detour (#17)
23 Murder My Sweet (#24)
22 Killers, The 46 (#5)
22 Kiss Me Deadly (#15)
21 Big Heat, The (#20)
20 Pickup on South Street (#37)
17 Gilda (#31)
16 Asphalt Jungle (#4)
16 Killing, The 56 (#10)
16 Nightmare Alley (#13)
15 Criss Cross (#2)
15 Scarlet Street (#21)
12 Night and the City (#14)
12 Night of the Hunter (#80)
11 Dark Passage (#83)
11 Lady From Shanghai (#66)
11 Mildred Pierce (#28)
11 Set-Up, The (#19)
11 Sweet Smell of Success (#48)
----top 25 (actually 29)----
9 D.O.A.
9 Leave Her to Heaven
9 Narrow Margin, The
8 Act of Violence
8 Postman Always Rings Twice
8 This Gun For Hire
7 Big Combo, The
7 Raw Deal
7 Shadow of a Doubt
7 Strangers on a Train
6 Force of Evil
6 Key Largo
6 Letter, The
6 Notorious
6 On Dangerous Ground
6 Stranger, The
5 99 River St.
5 Crossfire
5 Strange Love of Martha Ivers
5 White Heat
4 Ace in the Hole
4 Brute Foce
4 His Kind of Woman
4 Kansas City Confidential
4 Lady in the Lake
4 Naked City
4 Pushover
4 They Live by Night
3 Angel Face
3 Big Clock, The
3 Breaking Point, The
3 Hitch-Hiker, The
3 M 31
3 No Man of Her Own
3 Odds Against Tomorrow
3 Phantom Lady
3 Rear Window
3 Reckless Moment, The
3 Ride the Pink Horse
3 Rififi
3 Sorry, Wrong Number
3 Too Late For Tears
3 Witness for the Prosecution
2 Blue Dahlia, The
2 Born to Kill
2 Crime Wave
2 Cry Danger
2 Elevator to the Gallows
2 Fallen Angel
2 Gaslight
2 He Walked By Night
2 Kiss of Death
2 Lost Weekend, The
2 M '51
2 Moonrise
2 Murder by Contract
2 Nightfall
2 Pitfall
2 Possessed '47
2 Seventh Victim The
2 They Drive By Night
2 Woman in the Window
2 Woman on the Run
1 39 Steps, The
1 A Kiss Before Dying
1 Angels with Dirty Faces
1 Appointment With Danger
1 Armored Car Robbery
1 Black Angel
1 Border Incident
1 Bribe, The
1 Burglar, The
1 Cape Fear
1 City Streets
1 City That Never Sleeps
1 Conflict
1 Crashout
1 Crime of Passion
1 Cry of the City
1 Dark City '50
1 Dark Corner, The
1 Desperate Hours, The
1 Devil Thumbs A Ride, The
1 Diabolique
1 Dial M for Murder
1 Doulos, Le
1 Drive A Crooked Road
1 Enforcer, The
1 File on Thelma Jordon, The
1 Follow Me Quietly
1 Glass Key, The
1 Hell's Half Acre
1 Hellbound
1 High Sierra
1 Hollow Triumph
1 Human Desire
1 I Wake Up Screaming
1 Impact
1 Johnny O'Clock
1 Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye
1 Lady Vanishes, The
1 Le deuxieme souffle
1 Long Memory, The
1 Lured
1 Macao
1 Mr. Arkadin
1 My Friend Ivan Lapshin
1 Naked Kiss The
1 Nocturne
1 On the Waterfront
1 Phenix City Story, The
1 Place in the Sun, A
1 Prowler, The
1 Psycho
1 Racket, The
1 Reign of Terror
1 Road House
1 Ruthless
1 Scandal Sheet
1 Scarface '32
1 Shock Corridor
1 Stranger on the 3rd Floor
1 Stray Dog
1 Sudden Fear
1 Suddenly
1 T-Men
1 They Made Me A Criminal
1 Thieves' Highway
1 Threat, The
1 Three Strangers
1 Touchez pas au grisbi
1 Try and Get Me!
1 Walk Softly, Stranger
1 Where Danger Lives
1 Where the Sidewalks Ends
1 While the City Sleeps
1 Wicked Woman
1 Woman's Secret
1 Wrong Man, The
Re: 100 ballots...some annotations
Posted by Carl on 12/2/2019, 11:57 am, in reply to "Re: 100 ballots...some annotations"
Interesting that The Killing and The Asphalt Jungle are tied. It's a great debate as to which film is better and I've heard convincing arguments on both sides.
Born to Kill, two votes?
Criss Cross finds its proper level. It was overrated in our 2005 pool, in my estimation. As was Kiss My Deadly, probably, by somebody (me) who voted it first.
So The Third Man is noir now?
Posted by Don Malcolm on 12/2/2019, 7:50 pm, in reply to "Re: 100 ballots...some annotations"
Edited by Don Malcolm on 12/3/2019, 11:07 am
BORN TO KILL has been rather poorly served by the FNF--in recent years, they've pushed their own interests (screening a lot of second-tier Charles McGraw, arranging a re-screening of THE UNSUSPECTED to create a tie-in for yet another Mike Curtiz book signing...) instead of showing one of the truly great noirs. BORN TO KILL has played at NC only once--and that was in Year 1, back in 2003. (To be fair, Alan did include it at Palm Springs in 2015.)
BORN TO KILL did get screened early on in the NOIR ALLEY lineup (July 2017), but Eddie amped the "barroom, not classroom" schtick up in his coverage of the film and focused almost exclusively on the film's lurid aspects. It has not been well-served vis-a-vis its bravura and multi-layered extremity: witness the Nitrate Diva swooning over Tierney's completely un-nuanced portrayal of a sexual psychopath in DEVIL while not quite appreciating that some level of social mediation has to be operating in a world that's not summed up in a single dark night, as is so well played out in the twisty sexual-psychological grudge match that ensues between Trevor and Tierney in BORN TO KILL. [2023 NOTE: BORN TO KILL is one of the nineteen films that Eddie has shown more than once at Noir Alley, so it is beginning to get more representation; it still needs to be included more often in film festivals and it wouldn't hurt if TCM would screen it in a more regular rotation along with other noirs that appear outside the context of Noir Alley.]
Actually, Carl, you had both CRISS CROSS and KISS ME DEADLY in your top tier back in 2005, along with OUT OF THE PAST, DOUBLE INDEMNITY, and THE KILLERS. Eddie's 2005 top tier: ASPHALT JUNGLE, CRISS CROSS, DOUBLE INDEMNITY, IN A LONELY PLACE, and...SUNSET BOULEVARD. The late great Bill MacVicar: OUT OF THE PAST, DOUBLE INDEMNITY, NIGHTMARE ALLEY, THE BIG HEAT, and...CAGED.
FWIW, you and two of the prolific-at-the-time group of Garys (George and Deane) were the folks with the best match-up to the consensus Top Five in our poll.
In the IMDB polling, THE KILLING (8.0) edges out THE ASPHALT JUNGLE (7.9), but what is more intriguing is that THE KILLING has more than three times as many votes cast (75,000+) than JUNGLE (only 22,000). If sheer votes cast at IMDB were the determining factor for quality, the film rankings would be:
SUNSET BLVD (185,000+) [224,469]
THE THIRD MAN (just under 150,000) [173,609]
THE MALTESE FALCON (142,835) [160,839]
DOUBLE INDEMNITY (132,295) [159,200]
STRANGERS ON A TRAIN (116,615) [135,722]
WITNESS FOR THE PROSECUTION (96,687) [removed from film noir category]
TOUCH OF EVIL (94,074) [106,930]
NOTORIOUS (86,854) [102,776]
NIGHT OF THE HUNTER (76,866) [91,332]
THE KILLING (75,582) [91,556]
THE BIG SLEEP (74,983) [87,193]
SHADOW OF A DOUBT [66,921]*
SPELLBOUND (40,250) [49,696]
LAURA (39,556) [48,925]
KEY LARGO (34,836) [41,893]
SUSPICION [39,728]*
THE LOST WEEKEND (31,301) [38,069]
OUT OF THE PAST (29,898) [38,417]*
TO HAVE AND HAVE NOT (28,753) [35,831]
ACE IN THE HOLE (26,238) [36,930]*
WHITE HEAT (26,100) [33,821]
GILDA (25,611) [33,143]
SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS (25,257) [33,237]*
LADY FROM SHANGHAI (24,140) [31,305]
THE WRONG MAN (23,563) [29,385]
IN A LONELY PLACE (23,237) [32,593]*
SCARFACE '32 [28,759]*
THE ASPHALT JUNGLE (22,268) [28,082]
Where does BORN TO KILL rank on this list? 99th, with 4,120 votes. [2023 NOTE: Updated IMDB vote totals have been added and shown in brackets. Whenever a film has moved up a place or more in the updated voting, it is noted with an asterisk but it's been left in its original slot as reported in 2019. BORN TO KILL is now up to 5,573 voters, but it has been passed by 14 other films and now ranks #113 on the "number of ballots cast" list for film noir.]
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