Posted by Matty on March 15, 2011, 10:06:00 Message modified by board administrator June 13, 2012, 19:04:41
--Initiated 10/3/07--
Over the years we've had too many great discussions of the Forrestal-class supercarriers, and their air groups, etc., not to collect- and keep them posted for easy reference, all in one place. This thread will be that place, and I hope you will enjoy and contribute to it, as desired.
"...I am close to starting work on a Revell Forrestal carrier and need to add more period correct aircraft....I believe the short canopy Skyraider would be the correct one (for)...the time period I am building the Forrestal (, which) is approximately 1961."
And sent the following reference pics:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Bob, some close, computer-graphic-enhanced inspection (see insets) reveals both types of SkyRaider in your pics. At left and (especially) at center, a "Long-Canopy" SkyRaider is seen, with aft canopy sheathed-over, exactly as depicted in this example "Long-Canopy" SkyRaider from Matt Stein Models (except lacking the belly radome). But at right, the face-on Spad (see inset) has a canopy so narrow as to definitely be a ("short" canopy) "Bubble-Canopy" type SkyRaider - of course, also carried by Matty's Models.
But the thing about pics of just one or two planes: usually they can't prove the type was actually standard complement aboard ship at the time - and could perhaps have been lone "oddballs", even temporary visitors from other ships or airfields. The way to really nail it down - in addition to your great pics (don't get me wrong) - is to check the Forrestal Air Groups page at GoNavy. From which one can use the evidence of the WF-2 Tracer, in the pic at left, to deduce these date no earlier than Forrestal's Mediterranean cruise of 2/9/61 through 8/25/61 - as indeed the code "AJ" and number "741" ("modex 7xx") peg it to exactly that cruise (and not Forrestal's next, in '62).
Now, for the skinny on SkyRaiders go down the list for that cruise, looking on the right-hand column for "AD-x(x)", and you will find AD-6s - Bubble-Canopy type Spads - of the "Black Falcons" (VA-85), modex numbers 5xx, as well as AD-5Qs - Long-Canopy type 'Raiders - of the "Night Hawks" (VAW-33, Detachment 42), modex 8xx. Ironically, markings on the Long-Canopy SkyRaider in your pics do not match the above, and this and some of its wing pods suggest it is instead a tanker/utility SkyRaider with the "Diamondbacks" (fighter) Squadron! These would be relative "oddballs" - just one or two, if any, on deck at any given moment. In any case - one way and another - your answer is clear: both types of SkyRaiders.
"...I am especially in need of Tracers (also glimpsed, at left, and) Trackers."
No problem, Bob - one of the Tracers we already positively ID'd, above. But of Trackers (S2Fs, later S-2s), GoNavy makes no mention, ever being deployed aboard Forrestal. In the above pic at left, note the "Tracker" with folded wings does not have any large code letters nor modex numbers, but only a large American flag on the tail. This appears in fact to be the ship's - or, perhaps a visiting - "Carrier Onboard Delivery" (COD, later C-1) aircraft: yet another "oddball", as above. So, your choice whether you want to depict one of these on deck, for a bit of variety.
"...also (here are) a couple pics of what I believe to be the S-55 Navy helicopters that I need":
"...I just did a quick check on the Seabat helo and it appears to be a different copter than the S-55 (seen above). While the basic shape is very similar the tail is different. The Seabat has the hump at the top of the tail and straight on the bottom while the S55 has the hump at the bottom and is straight on the top."
Yes, Bob you are absolutely right - though your "hump at the bottom" on the S-55 (Navy designation "HO4S") was not a hump but an angled keel - a sort of fin - sweeping up and blending into the tail boom. The HSSx SeaBat (Sikorsky commercial designation S-58) was indeed hump-backed - although its nose did retain almost identical features, back as far as the main rotor, to your S-55/HO4S.
"...Any ideas?...let me know what you think..."
Well, I don't know anyone who makes an HO4S in 1:540 scale, but it does look to be pretty simple just to chop a SeaBat off the aft end of its passenger compartment, round that off and add some plastic rod and putty to make/blend in the HO4S tail end, and landing gear.
But, to backtrack a little I'm not even sure the HO4S seen above, was even Forrestal's own chopper anyway, since: 1) the type is not included on the GoNavy list (above), 2) GoNavy does mention the HUP-3 Retrievers seen in your pics, and 3) any other ship's utility choppers would likely not be bright orange but, if anything less flashy than the Retrievers. Also, by 1961 the HO4S was far from a "front-line" machine (already superseded - for years - by the HSS/HUS): if the above was somehow one of Forrestal's own, then surely it was their last surviving "Old Paint" workhorse - another "one-off oddball", as discussed above. But I think it most likely was a visitor from another (smaller, second-line) ship, or shore base.
Anyway, it never hurts to add variety to a flight deck. And I learned the HO4S was designated "HRS" by the Marines and "H-19" by the Army - who further named it the "Chickasaw", and I'm sure the Navy and Marine Corps likewise had their own names for it, though I don't know what those were. (If anyone can enlighten us here, pipe up!)
"...Thanks!...(and) thanks too for (this) Forrestal thread link - it('s) helpful."
That's what we aim for - you're very welcome - and Welcome to Model Fleet, buddy!
Cheers,
-Matty
Modeler's question: FORRESTAL AIR GROUPS
Posted by Arjun Sarup (via Matty) on March 15, 2011, 10:07:52, in reply to "First SuperCarrier: The FORRESTALS" Message modified by board administrator June 13, 2012, 19:06:45
--Originally Posted 10/3/07--
Arjun wrote me, saying:
"I saw your 1/540 & 1/525 scale aircraft postings. I happen to have an Airfix USS Forrestal with some late-950's /early 1960s style aircraft on her deck; the Skywarrior, Fury, Skyraider, Demon, & Hup2 Retriever.
They don't look very exciting, compared to Phantoms & Vigilantes, or even Skyhawks. So my question is; did USS Forrestal carry any other aircraft apart from the ones already provided in the kit, when she had thin runway stripes running down her deck? (I'm not sure if her deck was modified later to accommodate faster jets, because I've seen later photos of her with double stripes and F-14s, etc..)
And if yes, where can I get some 1/600 Navy aircraft? I haven't come across any others, so any help would be most appreciated. Or if unavailable, can I stick on some 1/540 jets?
Thanking you in anticipation..."
OK, there's a couple issue contained in the above. Firstly, I don't know (near) enough about Forrestal to know when her deck markings changed, or even what they were before or after. To answer questions like this, I go first and most profitably to NavSource.org; plow through the pics and dates until you figure out the situation. IIRC the Airfix kit lacks any of Forrestal's later sponsons, so take a good look at everything - her fit, flight deck markings and what aircraft - to determine an accurate time period.
The answer to the second question - whether or not you can use 1/540 aircraft on a 1/600 build - is certainly "yes"; a 1/540 aircraft is only 11% larger than 1/600 scale - and many of your OOB planes are probably already over- or undersized by this amount! You'll never see the difference, trust me.
I, of course, sell some 1/550 aircraft - yet closer in scale for you - through Matty's Models. I don't (yet) carry the "sexy" Phantom-IIs and Skyhawks you're looking for, but (less detailed versions of) these abound from old Revell Saratoga/Forrestal kits, as well as from the old Revell angled-deck (SCB-125) Essex-class kits. The guys on the board here can probably help you track down some of those.
However make sure you know what you're looking for; the Furies and Demons of the Airfix kit are relatively early aircraft; it may well be that along with them Forrestal carried something(s) like F7U Cutlasses and F2H3 "Big Banjo"s, for example. And these are also available from early Revell carrier kits.
If there are any Forrestal buffs out there reading this, pipe up and help us out! It will be interesting to unravel this question fully - thanks, Arjun, for sending in the question buddy!
Cheers,
-Matty
Forrestal carried everything
Posted by Don Murphy on March 15, 2011, 10:22:27, in reply to "Modeler's question: FORRESTAL AIR GROUPS" Message modified by board administrator June 13, 2012, 19:25:02
--Originally Posted ~10/10/07--
She ended her Navy career armed with none other than the mighty F-14 Tomcat. All of the class (Forrestal, Saratoga, Ranger, Independence) were capable of operating the Tomcat and prior to that, the Phantom. During Vietnam, they operated the Crusader and Phantom. In the early 1980's, all of the class transitioned to the F-14A Tomcat.
The class survived the 1980's and early 1990's. She was converted to a training carrier in the early 90's and operated all the Navy's current (at the time) training birds. She never operated the F/A-18 Hornet tho... Only Saratoga and Indy did. Ranger and Forrestal ended their careers with Tomcats as the fighter force ("VF") and A-6E Intruders as the bomber force ("VA").
Cheers,
Don
Re: Forrestal carried everything
Posted by Brian morris on August 27, 2011, 18:57:19, in reply to "Forrestal carried everything" Message modified by board administrator June 13, 2012, 19:25:50
--Originally Posted ~10/10/07--
Has everyone forgotten the c130 on the forrestal plus in the winter of 1956 more types of naval aircraft were on the deck of the forrestal than youl ever find any where else in history
Do you have Any Pics of that?
Posted by Matty on August 30, 2011, 8:20:01, in reply to "Re: Forrestal carried everything" Message modified by board administrator June 13, 2012, 19:26:31
--Originally Posted ~10/10/07--
I vaguely remember a C-130 Hercules and, IIRC also a PV-2 Orion, maybe getting flung off the bow - almost certainly with JATO assist - off (a) Forrestal. (My, what those "turning-and-burning" jockeys wouldn't try for a thrill, in those days! )
Of course, taking off is the easy part, as the Doolittle B-25s proved, as far back as 1942. The hard part is landing back on.
And I can't recall seeing any 1956 pic(s) of so many different a/c aboard (a) Forrestal, Brian.
Can you steer us to any pic(s) of any of the above, buddy?
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: Do you have Any Pics of that?
Posted by brian on August 30, 2011, 10:51:05, in reply to "Do you have Any Pics of that?" Message modified by board administrator June 13, 2012, 19:27:13
--Originally Posted ~10/10/07--
c130 on forrestal on utube
Know-It-All, Part II: FORRESTAL's "SEXY" BIRDS
Posted by Matty on March 15, 2011, 10:15:59, in reply to "Modeler's question: FORRESTAL AIR GROUPS" Message modified by board administrator June 13, 2012, 19:10:26
--Originally Posted 10/7/07--
As I said before, I find the earlier aircraft - the Savages, Skyraiders and Banshees - to be the "hottest" birds to model, but to each his own. Donny Murphy, of course, loves the F-14 Tomcat. And also the RA-5 Vigilante - just like you, Arjun.
As for when the Vigi-bird first appeared on USS Forrestal, note the GoNavy list makes zero mention of any RA-5 (or A-5, etc.) at any time, ever - which surely doesn't seem right. On the other hand, Navsource too offers no pics of Vigilantes on Forrestal - with the single exception of this one here:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The date on the left pic is November, 1960; between the end of Forrestal's sixth cruise (8/31/60) and the start of her seventh (2/9/61). This is fully two years after her first loads of Phantom-IIs and Skyhawks arrived. But I suspect that operational deployment of the Vigi - if indeed it ever did take place on Forrestal - would have been significantly later even than this. Because the Navsource caption states this bird is conducting "carrier trials" - as also suggested by the large number of people standing around gawking at her - so this was no doubt a lone prototype; brought aboard for flight testing.
And if the Vigi-bird did operationally deploy on Forrestal, we might follow the same rule-of-thumb observed for her flight tests of the Demon and Crusader, to guestimate a start date sometime between 8 months to two years later; circa 1961 to 1963. The pic at right was taken within this period - July, 1961 - but does not show any Vigilantes - at least, none clear enough for me to ID. It's the same with virtually every subsequent picture at Navsource.
So it really doesn't look good for the Vigilante ever having been deployed - not operationally, anyway - on Forrestal at all, Arjun.
However I did notice something regarding flight deck markings in both the above pics. And that is that - apart from the "hollow outline"-type flight deck numbers, and dashed center landing stripe - all these still resemble the earlier markings to a high degree. If one were simply to cut the yellow dashes out of the Airfix center landing stripe decal, and come up with the newer style flight deck numbers, then it looks like an accurate Forrestal from this later period - during which we know, for sure that Phantoms and Skyhawks were embarked - could be depicted. Which clearly seems to be what you're after, eh Arjun? IIRC the newer Revell Forrestals had the "hollow outline"-style flight deck number decals; maybe they have a decal sheet they would sell you - or you could probably snag the kit inexpensively on eBay.
Returning to the aircraft, it was also around this time - for Forrestal's seventh cruise; 2/9-8/25, 1961 - that the AD-5W Skyraider was finally retired in favor of the WF2 (later E-1) Tracer airborne early warning (AEW) plane, according to GoNavy. The Tracer was a derivative of the S2F Tracker anti-submarine warfare (ASW) bomber, and although the above pic at right, which was taken on this cruise, doesn't show either one, it does show another Tracker derivative: the CF2 (later C-1) Trader "carrier onboard delivery" (COD) aircraft - on the starboard catapult,
The first pics showing Forrestal Tracers proper are these:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Dated 1/12/62 at left and 9/2/62 at right. the latter shows what I imagine to be your ideally "sexy" Forrestal flight deck, Arjun; sporting Phantom-IIs, Skywarriors, Skyhawks, Crusaders, Skyraiders and a Tracer.
And this pic really is a "sexy" pose - considering the function of a carrier, in both air- and sea control, is to detect and destroy. Here on Forrestal's bow, the "detector" is represented by the Tracer - dialed in ready to launch from the port catapult - and the "destroyer" is of course the Phantom, likewise ready to launch from the starboard cat.
So, when adding planes for your ultimte, "sexy" deckload don't forget about the detectors; be sure to include some Tracers, too. Yet another perfect segway to a shameless plug of Matt Stein Models:
Click on Image to Enlarge
This is the Matty's Models Tracer, in 1/550 scale. It is also convertible, by removing various features of the casting, into the Trader COD aircraft (or, for that matter, the original S2F ASW bird). You can of course get Tracers and/or Traders from OOP Revell carriers, particularly their angled-deck Essex-class kits (again, nominally in 1/540 scale) - however the Matty's Models versions are far more detailed, accurate to scale and adaptable - plus, of course I could use the business!
I hope the above gives you (and everybody) some ideas on how best to build your Airfix kit, Arjun.
And if anyone has some more definitive evidence to answer the questions raised above, please pipe up and lay it on us!
Posted by Matty on March 15, 2011, 10:10:33, in reply to "Modeler's question: FORRESTAL AIR GROUPS" Message modified by board administrator June 13, 2012, 19:09:17
--Originally Posted 10/7/07--
Arjun wrote to me about my answer above, saying:
"Thanks for posting up my query and your very informative reply on the message board. It never ceases to amaze me how many different people might know /have an answer to a problem. Just goes to show that a single person cannot possib(ly) know it all…"
Well, you're quite welcome Arjun! And, while I'm certainly not someone who knows everything, I do play one on-line. Observe:
Again, your question interests me very much, so I researched NavSource - their Forrestal page - just as recommended:
Click on Image to Enlarge
In these pics Forrestal has just commissioned, in September, 1955. Flight deck markings common to both pics include the three landing stripes - the center one much thicker than the outside ones - as well as solid, block-style flight deck numbers, fore and aft. These and subsequent pics indicate the apparent features along the catapult tracks and arrester wires are not deliberate markings, but just different deck finish/textures.
Now I also have to tell you about another source which I consulted - the "holy grail" of USN carrier air groups, IMHO - which I somehow forgot to mention earlier: the "Go Navy" website. There you can find links to every USN carrier ever built - I'll cut right to the chase with this one directly to their USS Forrestal page. Note they tell you almost everything you really need to know to identify the a/c: dates and places deployed, aircraft types, air group names and modex numbers.
And GoNavy says that Forrestal, on her shakedown cruise (1/24 - 3/31, 1956; to the South Atlantic) carried: - F2H-3 (all-weather) Banshees ("Big Banjos"); - FJ-3 Furies; - F7U-3M Cutlasses; - AD-6 (bubble-canopy) Skyraiders; - AJ-2 Savages; - F2H-2P (photo-recconaissance) Banshees; - AD-5N ("long-canopy" all-weather) Skyraiders; - AD-5W ("long-canopy" airborne early warning) Skyraiders; and - HUP-2 Retriever choppers.
And here are a couple telling pics from that cruise:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The one at left confirms Forrestal retained the landing stripes initially painted on for commissioning, and both pics reveal additional, finer markings forward: a dotted centerline and angled taxi lines; one pointing to each forward catapult, out from the centerline.
In the left pic a Retriever is forward, with Big Banjos taxiing to the cats behind. Further aft, more Banshees are parked beside the island and, across from them, 5 Furies on the portside deck edge. All the way aft, to port appear to be a couple Savages (w/o wing tanks) and, across from them, Skyraiders of some type(s). In the right pic, of course the Furies are obvious, and the dark fighter is a Banshee. Note all these are in the GoNavy list above, and many also depicted in your Airfix kit; requiring just a few more to represent every a/c type in this, initial Forrestal air complement.
Which brings us to the following, shameless plug for Matt Stein Models :
Click on Image to Enlarge
The above "long-canopy"-type Skyraiders - the AD-5N and especially the AD-5W, with belly radome, shown at left - are rather different from the "bubble canopy"-type AD-6s of your Airfix kit. Matty's Models offers both types, as well as an AJ-2 Savage, shown at right. All are in 1/550 scale - fine for either 1/600 or 1/500 builds.
That leaves only the Banshees and Cutlasses - both of which can be scavenged from old Revell Saratoga/Forrestal kits - and Matt Stein Models also plans to produce (vastly better) versions of these in the future, too.
Note the F3H Demons and A3D Skywarriors of your Airfix kit were not yet deployed on Forrestal; GoNavy lists them as first appearing - both together - on her third cruise; 1/15-7/22, 1957, to the Mediterranean.
However NavSource offers some apparent major contradictions in the following:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The left picture of a Demon being launched from Forrestal was dated before April of 1956 - that's even before the end of Forrestal's shakedown! Likewise, the pic of the F8U Crusader (talk about "sexy"!) at right is dated May, 1956 - over two years before GoNavy says the F8 deployed aboard; 9/2/58. The answer is apparently that brand-new prototypes were making their first appearances - singly - in flight trials on Forrestal long before being shipped in any quantities. Note that neither picture shows any additional Demons or Crusaders aboard.
But don't forget the deck markings: note at left the launch officer standing on a triangle-w/line-through-it, just a hair starboard of the centerline. It remains detectable (just barely) in the following pics from the third cruise:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Deck markings visible in these pics include all the familiar ones above, as well as a long, very thin line running from the landing area, starboard side, up to the port catapult. Plus, the rare color pic at right reveals the center landing stripe was actually composed of alternating yellow-and-white dashes. The outboard stripes are too thin - these pics too small - to tell if they were likewise dashed, but in any case they clearly contained at least some yellow - and of course the flight deck numbers were yellow.
This cruise and the next one - Forrestal's fourth cruise; 8/16 through 10/21, 1957 (to the North Atlantic) - were the window in time when Forrestal deployed all the types of aircraft in your Airfix kit. Here is a gorgeous pic of that fourth cruise:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Note 3 Big Banjos forward; a rare glimpse of their wings unfolded.
For Forrestal's third and fourth cruises combined, the total aircraft list (per GoNavy) is:
Note the initially embarked Cutlasses had been replaced by F9F Cougars (also available from Revell Midway- and Essex-class kits). Meanwhile, the AD-5Q probably resembled closely if not identically its predecessor, the AD-5N.
Based on all the above, I would guess sight-unseen that your Airfix flight deck decals (if they're any good at all) must surely depict these markings. If not, then they should; in order to match the aircraft provided. So we've established what the appropriate flight deck markings actually were.
Now to your question of whether they changed before Forrestal got her first F4 Phantom-IIs and A4 Skyhawks, which GoNavy says she did - along with her first F8 Crusaders - beginning with her next cruise; her fifth. Unfortunately Navsource has no pics of her flight deck from this cruise, but only from during (or just before) her sixth cruise: 1/28-8/31, 1960 (to the Med):
Click on Image to Enlarge
The indication is not good; note the central landing stripe has gone to a bona-fide dashed line, and the block flight deck numbers are gone, replaced by more muted "hollow outline"-style numbers. So Arjun, if your "sexy" Phantoms and Skyhawks coexisted with the above, early flight deck markings, it could only have been during Forrestal's fifth cruise: 9/2/58 through 3/12/59.
For further clues I'd recommend Forrestal's DANFS History - or veterans' websites, etc.- but time (and space) won't permit me to do that here. Personally, I would give the builder artistic license to put Phantoms and Skyhawks on the earlier flight deck markings - even if not strictly accurate.
I did find some additional tidbits of interest (which also won't fit here). So look for a second post, in which I'll take up the issue of Vigilantes on Forrestal and maybe another idea or two…
I've got alot of references for Forrestal 1959-61 since my uncle had flown Whales off her decks with VAH-5 during that time. Here is the cruisebook for the 1961 Med Cruise http://navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv59-61/index.html
I'll upload some pics to my PB account so I can post some here. Eddie
Love those pics, Eddie! Especially the color one - even though that ancient color has problems (different at different places in the pic, itself) - still it serves to "get you going" towards imagining what your finished builds can look like.
And that second one is a classic, too - a pure Douglas Deckload - with F4Ds (which look like nothing so much as little stingrays, IMHO) packed next to A4D Scooters and A3D Whales!
Your uncle looks pretty happy, along with the other Whale-drivers, with a great view in that third pic of a tail stinger (with guns removed from the) mount. Is that the "Eubanges" emblem behind the cockpit?
And on the last one, that AEW SkyRaider tail art has got to be some sort of "Bats", right?
Great pics - thanks for the contribution, buddy!
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: Awesome PICS, buddy!
Posted by Eddie S. on August 9, 2012, 12:17:42, in reply to "Awesome PICS, buddy!"
Thanks Matt. Yep, That is the Savage Sons of Sanford Emblem (VAH-5) and Righty o on the Bats on the tail of the AEW AD-5W Skyraider. They are called the Bats. They went to Willie Fudds the next cruise (1961) My uncle was always smiling & that is mentioned in all his Fitness Reports And, everyone I've communicated with regarding him. He was well liked & admired by all. I have the 1/542 Forrestal which'll be done up some time 1959-61
) 
: 
And, everyone I've communicated with regarding him. He was well liked & admired by all. 
