Posted by Paulo Roberto (via Matty) on October 29, 2010, 10:55:37 Message modified by board administrator October 29, 2010, 15:23:07
Paulo Roberto - Matt Stein Models' first-ever customer in Brazil (!) - writes:
"...I usually build 1/700 warships, mainly Imperial Japanese Navy, US Navy and a few from tke Kriegsmarine. Most of the kits are from WW2 era, except for US carriers - love them and have some modern ones too. Some months ago, however, I was hooked by the idea to build (again) the old Revell 1/540 Midway carrier. I got this kit in the 60s from my late father. It was injected here in Brazil by a company that got the rights from Revell USA. As usual at that time, I build it in a couple of days, painting all aircrafts gloss blue. After several years it went to the trash bin, but I managed to save all aircrafts, the guns and some other small itens. Last july I came across a Midway being sold here in Brazil and bought it. It was already buil(t), but the owner used white glue (!), allowing me to disassemble it fairly easy. Now I plan to build it again, upgrading this old (lady) as much as possible. Got a PE fret from Gold Medal Models and decals from Starfighter Decals, but the air group was a problem. I had the required number of Cougars and helos, but only three Skyraiders...
...Last Monday I took some hours to make a research in the Internet, via Google, looking for 1/540 items for my Midway, mainly aircrafts. I browsed dozens of websites and found a small reference about someone willing to use 'Matt Stein aircrafts' to populate an old Revell aircraft carrier. I typed 'Matt Stein' at Google and here I am..."
Back to Matty again - yes, Paulo, here you are - and you've come to exactly right place : Welcome Aboard, buddy!
Below I - and anyone(s) else having info/reference pics to contribute - will take a look at features of the Midway-class carriers, from the time periods in which they carried the aircraft you already have, as well as other suitable aircraft and fittings, currently available.
I think you (and everybody) are going to find this quite useful - and (hopefully) enjoyable. Welcome to ModelFleet, Paulo!
Our recent look at available (air group) data for Midway's sister-ships, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Coral Sea, during the (total) period of interest roughly 1954 through '57, revealed more similarities than not, between the three. This possibly also being the case for their overal fits/fittings, I would now back up and work from the hypothesis that the trio were essentially identical - unless and except for any difference(s) we can uncover.
One major item - in fact, the "600-lb gorilla in the room" hovering over everything so far - is an already-substantial refit applied to their bows, enclosing the anchor deck:
Click on Image for FULL-RES
In May, 1952 we find Midway has a brand-new looking "baby hurricane bow", which leaves the original clipper bow exposed - the heavy "oil-canning" of the latter bespeaking the need of the former - as one can only imagine the tons of water shipped aboard, by waves capable of such pounding, on the bow. Lacking this substantial feature the Revell kit thus depicts Midway too early for the Cougars provided! Note the actual planes on deck are not Cougars but their predecessors, Panthers (straight wings, canted outward when folded). (Oooops!...methinks somebody mastering the kit didn't pay close enough attention to which kind of "F9F": the "-5", or the "-6"!) In any case, such crucially-needed protection for one sister could be expected to be given to all, and indeed that's what our other reference pics (below) all confirm. So, a bit of (not particularly hard) scratchbuilding, if you want the bow to be correct.
Open-Mount Twin-3"50cals Also prominent above are the pair of twin-3"50cal open mounts, which had (long) before 1952 replaced all original quad-40mms, on all 3 of The Sisters. The Revell kit does depict these - poorly (though not as poorly as some others) - and you can achieve infinitely better using Matt Stein Models' 3"50s - another item not yet listed at the website, but available (and priced) by custom/special order. Here is a look at 'em, assembled and painted - plus, PE (not included) can be added, as well.
Comparing features of the whole class, it becomes even more important to go round-robin on all available references from the era of interest - still, just a small total number of pics:
Starting with Rosie in November, 1952, these two pics - taken within minutes of each other, by a circling aircraft - reveal she already has her Baby-Hurricane enclosure, as well as twin-3"50cals, wherever visible. Three aircraft - an F2H-2-sized Banshee and two SkyRaiders (impossible to further identify, due to fuzziness) - are entirely compatible with the FDR's GoNavy listing, as well as those of her sisters at the time. Note FDR still retains her original, forward-facing tripod mast - the only sister to do so (see below) - as also in your Revell kit, which essentially depicts the original WWII fit, with a few later aircraft and AA guns substituted.
Mk37 Gun Directors The above origin of the Revell kit is additionally evident from the two Mk37 gun directors on the island, incorrectly depicted with WWII-vintage "bedspring accordion" radar antennae instead of the later dish antennae, encountered (wherever visible) in all our reference pics. Particularly above, at right - especially when viewed at full-resolution - which additionally shows the taper in the front of the real Mk37 cabs, which Revell also failed to reflect. The Good News is, of course - you guessed it - Matty's Models' Mk37 Directors are far more accurate - and come replete with extra radars and hatches to finish them, as you can see, to depict virtually any of the (numerous) variants of this device (with the tapered-front cab), ever to go to sea.
At left, a pic of Coral Sea "sometime around" 1954 is one of our best, confirming her baby-hurricane enclosure and twin-3"50cals (again, some with a radar dish and some without). Her tripod is reversed - splayed legs pointing forward - clearly to make room for a boxy (probably radar-CIC) shack atop the island, whose forward Mk37 director is all but positively identifiable as the "Cold War 3-hatch" variant - again, one which can be made from the Matty's Models upgrade (as shown second-from-right, in the linked pic). And at right, our May 20, 1954 pic of Midway mirrors virtually all the above - from the reversed tripod, down to small gun-director cabs (see below) - in the same locations seen on Coral Sea, at left.
Mk 56 Gun Directors Particularly visible above on Coral Sea is a small, radar (-dish) equipped gun director, on a small platform ahead of island - with another across the deck, in line-of-sight, on the portside, and yet a third just the other side of two 5-inch turrets, before the deck-edge elevator. Based on this and our other pics, all The Sisters apparently mounted 3 such smaller directors on each side - often looking very much like Mk56 directors. Not that you would know it from the Revell mold, which doesn't have any director cabs whatsoever - again, clearly evoking an earlier fit, which, though depicting for example the small platform ahead of the bridge, places only a small peg there, representing a manual, WWII-type director. If in fact by 1954 some or all these were Mk56 directors (or something very similar), you could utilize Matt Stein Models Mk56 Directors to depict them (reasonably) accurately.
At left, a pic taken "around" 1955 finally shows Midway clearly enough to confirm a "3-hatch"-type Mk37 director on the forward (and no doubt also aft) end of her island, as well as reversed tripod and small, dish-equipped director ahead of the island, as well as another below it, behind a twin-3"50cal mount (also with a its own dish). These pics - the one at right showing Coral Sea on 28 July, 1955 - connect AJ Savages to both ships, at about the same time. In fact, all the above pics, together with "GoNavy" aircraft lists pretty consistently define a "standard" aircraft suite - granted, with the occasional addition/deletion - for all Three Sisters, during this era:
Parts depicting the first two, above were adequately included in the Revell kit, with virtually all the rest currently available as upgrade options identified earlier.
So, is that enough info - and accessory options - to not only consider Midway for this build, but to enlist her sisters, too?
All this fine information you made available will make me consider building a second Midway class carrier.
The twin 3"s are a godsend. I was looking for a way to improve the original ones from Revell and even considering to start from scratch. Now I am done!
The F9Fs are trick - same id witn different wings!
Looking forward to order all these nice items.
Thanks and best regards,
Paulo Roberto
When COUGARS Prowled THE MIDWAY
Posted by Matty on October 29, 2010, 15:20:53, in reply to "PAULO ROBERTO's Revell MIDWAY" Message modified by board administrator October 30, 2010, 1:22:14
Paulo, I started doing some research exactly as I would for a build of my own - starting out with determining when the aircraft you already have in hand were deployed aboard Midway - for which I go first to GoNavy's CVs page, in this case scrolling down to the (earlier-period) Midway - as that's the fit of your Revell model. And we find that, before receiving her angled-deck (SCB-110) fit, starting August, 1955, she only carried your Cougars on two cruises:
Jan 8 - Aug 4, 1954 Mediterranean Cruise ----Aircraft-------Squadron [Modex] ----F9F-6-------VF-33 [(K)200], VF-73 [(L)300] ----HUP-2-------HU-2 DET 35 [(UR)xx] ----AD-6/4N---VA-25 [500]/ VC-33det.35 [(SS)8xx] ----AD-4W------VC-12 DET 35 [(NE)7xx] ----F2H-2/2P--VF-34 [(K)400]/ VC-62 DET 35 [(PL)9xx] ----F2H-3-------VF-31 [(K)100]
Note I've rearranged the data to group by aircraft - starting at the top, with the ones you already have, and working down through the ones you might want to add.
Planes you Already Have Both your Cougars (F9F-6) and Retrievers (HUP-2 - the helicopters) deployed aboard both cruises: two Cougar squadrons on the first, reducing to one on the second. Armed with these specific dates, we can then go (again, for USN ships) to NavSource, there (hopefully) to find historical pics explicitly corroborating the above aircraft types - or to alert us to the possibility of any others. In this case - in fact, for all the Midway-class sisters - photos from this specific time are achingly rare, however I did find the following pic, which happens to show probably very nearly if not exactly the deckload you were contemplating:
Click on Image for FULL-RES
During the first of her above cruises Midway's deck is loaded with SkyRaiders, surrounded (literally) by Cougars, plus a few Banshees aft, to starboard. All completely in agreement - so far as we can determine (within limits of the poor photo-quality) - with the GoNavy data, above.
AD-6/4N "Bubble-Canopy" SkyRaiders Next below the choppers on the above lists, I've grouped together all models of "bubble-canopy"-type SkyRaiders: (standard) AD-6, and (night-attack) AD-4N (the latter appearing on the first cruise only). Now, the Bad News about your "only three (Revell) Skyraiders" is that they were so inaccurate: the (two only) bubble-top SkyRaiders in the Midway kit having inaccurately high wings, looking very different from the real thing (and far more like Grumman Guardians, IMHO). But the Good News (which you already know) is that you can snag great upgrades - in the form of Matt Stein Models' "bubble-canopy" SkyRaiders. And again, the improved versions - not yet shown on the website, but available at the same prices listed there - include drop tanks, wing-racks, accurized nose air intake and tail stabilizers.
AD-5N/4W "Long-Canopy" SkyRaiders Note above, on the second cruise the earlier, night-attack AD-4N SkyRaiders were replaced by AD-5Ns, which were "long-canopy"-fit SkyRaiders - as also were the AD-4W (radar early-warning) SkyRaiders, of both cruises. Either of these long-canopy variants can be depicted using Matty's Models' "long-canopy" SkyRaiders. As you can see, the casting already includes the huge, belly radome of the AD-4W (and later) "AEW" SkyRaiders - simply whittle it off, for the AD-5N - and again these items area also now available in improved versions, not yet shown at the website, including drop tanks, wing-racks, accurized nose air intake and tail stabilizers - again, at the same prices currently listed.
F2H-2 Banshees Next-listed are ("day"-fighter) F2H-2 and (photo-recon) F2H-2P Banshees: variants of the the original, smaller-airframe design of this fighter. Unfortunately, Matty's Models has not yet entered into the panoply of jets, including these. Now, I know you already bought some decals from StarFighter - so perhaps you already saw and passed on the following - but in case nobody made you aware of it at the time, currently they are listing what appears to be a (pretty rough-looking) repopped Revell (possibly Renwal) F2H-2. These might be good enough (unless, again you've already determined otherwise) to add some Banshees as desired.
F2H-3/4 "Big Banjos" Last-listed are the larger, F2H-3 (on the 1st cruise) and -4 (on the 2nd) all-weather Banshees, dubbed "Big Banjos" - distinguishable also by their folded wings, which locked straight up, as opposed to arching overhead, as for the F2H-2/Ps. Again, exactly the same situation appears to exist as for the F2H-2s, above, with none available from me, but StarFighter currently listing a repopped F2H-3/4 (in case you didn't already know, buddy).
AJ- or K/AJ Savages Not indicated in the GoNavy data, above, were the type(s) of in-flight refeulling tanker(s) carried. Although possibly performed by additional (modified) SkyRaiders, in-flight refuelling on USN carriers during this time period was also commonly done by converted (K/)AJ Savage bombers, of which two or three were frequently seen on-deck. GoNavy listings often being incomplete - and with me unsure if they would even list tankers separately, anyway - I checked the data for Midway's sisters Franklin D. Roosevelt (CVA-42) and Coral Sea (CVA-43), finding the former to be grossly incomplete, but the latter identifying AJ-1s - at least one squadron, continuously present (and two on the first cruise) - between Jul 7, 1954 thru Feb 11, 1957. Thus proving that Savages were - at least, on Coral Sea - deployed in quantity, as bombers, too.
Thus, it seems highly likely that during the same period Midway would have carried (at least a couple of) these - either as tankers, or a whole bombing squadron, missed by the GoNavy list - and sure enough, a couple of (even more-achingly-rare) color photos from the period confirm it:
At left, aboard Coral Sea July 28, 1955, two Savages (dark blue, tail codes illegible) are parked in line-of-sight with the island - again, typical of USN carriers in this era (even if a whole AJ squadron was not aboard). And then at right, specific evidence regarding Midway herself: a Savage (tail code "AM" - possibly "AN" - and Modex 8xx), either going aboard or coming off her, sometime "around 1955". So, you could also add (at least) a few Savages - AJ-1s being very close in appearance to Matty's Models' (AJ-2) Savages - which would really add variety to your deckload.
Perhaps the above is now suggesting the possibility (as it did, to me) of building the kit as one of Midway's sisters: FDR or Coral Sea. This is yet more to look into - including a couple more pics I found - and we haven't even discussed any of the fittings (particularly weapons and directors) yet! So, stay tuned and we'll take that up - as best we can, and for all three sisters - in our next exciting installment!
Second, many, many thanks your research about the Midway air group and aircrafts. It will help a lot in setting up the correct deck load. Must point that the photo from above taken in Gibraltar is a very good one. First time I see it.
When I started my research I found that it was necessary to decide between F4Us and Cougars, considering that they did not operate together. The Cougars won, since I had many of them and also like a lot these early jets.
Concerning the F-2Hs -2, -3 and -4, I already made notice of the ones listed at the Starfighter website. Will order them in the near future.
I was concerned about the Skyraiders, but now I am sure that, with your products, they will be a major part of my air group. Savages will fit nicely too.
Would like to share a Midway website I found recently.
Paulo, no I had not seen that Midway website before - or if I ever had, I'd forgotten it - but I just went there and "scored" immediately with one item: confirmation she did indeed carry Savages, for both of her 1954- and -55 cruises, exactly as we had surmised.
Firstly, there is her Air Squadrons list, which specifically names a Detachment of AJ-1s, tail code "NB", on that cruise to Gibraltar producing the pic you liked (it is impressive, isn't it!).
Next, for her subsequent (around-the-world) cruise, there is even more conclusive evidence: photos of Savages on deck - revealing not only their tailcode "NF", but also horizontal tailplanes (plus, a nice shot of a Banshee, there) - proving her Savages were AJ-2s (possibly late model/retrofitted AJ-1s) - exactly as depicted in the Matty's Models Savages.
And here too, on this second cruise now, we see the kind of deck park - a pile of 'Raiders, surrounded by Cougars - that you liked from the earlier, Mediterranean cruise (Gibraltar) pic.
Among what clearly appears to be a ton of pics, I haven't even begun to look through!
So, you "bring it" at ModelFleet, and we'll post it, Paulo - not only have you find the right place, but ModelFleet has snagged the right "recruit" - that much appears certamente, buddy!
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: OUTSTANDING, camarada!
Posted by Paulo Roberto on November 1, 2010, 13:22:46, in reply to "OUTSTANDING, camarada!"
Hi Matty,
Glad to know that I could help. It is a very good site and I am still digging data from all those photos.
Paulo, check out Don Czech's AJ-1 diorama - a real museum-quality build (of a rare and classic kit, too) - among many others, in our Gallery.
Don left off the wingtip tanks and painted his gray - I have the same (Mach-II) kit, and would do mine glossy dark blue, with wing tanks (plus moving, folding wings). But Don's great(est) leg-up on me is that he actually got down and built his!
Wow! A very nice job! I like these dioramas built around a carrier deck scene. And this one is special, since it shows a bird we did not see very often.
I am walking slowly through the ModelFleet gallery. Many things to see but little time to spare. Anyway, will walk a little every day.
Great to meet new faces. Keep us posted on your Midway build - I'm doing the 700th scale Loose Cannon USS Midway, but I'm doing her as USS FDR in 1946.
Cheers,
Don
Re: Welcome aboard!
Posted by Paulo Roberto on November 2, 2010, 9:54:42, in reply to "Welcome aboard! "
Hi Don,
Thanks! It is a pleasure to be here. Will make available at ModelFleet information about the Midway build, as soon as I start it. Must clear the shipyard first, finishing some ongoing 1/700 projetcs.
Your 1/700 FDR sounds very good and I am looking forward to see it here. This is the right scale!
What's your take on the 5'/54 mounts Revell provides in the Midway kit? IIRC they weren't bad but needed cleanup - and another IIRC, they were the same mounts that later went onto USS Long Beach, another great Revell kit coming back soon.
Mikey be polite, God-DammIt: it's unfriendly to reply someone's post - especially a new visitor's - by talking to someone else (even if it's to fawn before me )! Show some of that USAir Force Hospitality and make Paulo feel welcome.
As for the Revell single 5-inchers, compared to these historical pics of the real things I think they look about the right shape - possibly a little undersized (or maybe its the perspective in the pics) - but my main impression is that they have too many ridges on them: overly hard- and proud (raised) molded-in details, as well as apparent artifacts from compromises in the mold itself.
The rectangles towards the back on each side, for example, are gunhouse doors - 'way overdone (would've been far better recessed a little, and slightly rounded). And then - no doubt due to limitations of their mold technology - they put a large rim around the base, as well as large block forward, under the gun barrel - making the biggest (visual) detour from the real McCoy, which had a very smooth-faced look, with single, large slot for the gun barrel, in it.
Of course, you really can't fault a half-century-old modeling technology - but it wasn't until I looked at these references recently, that I realized how wrong is the the impression given by Revell Midway's 5-inchers! Which, you are correct, can be pretty easily cleaned-up - with a sharp knife and (especially a) chisel.
Mike, I never got any (of your latest) Barney pics - did you try to send me any?
Those "Brookes/Garcia"-type 5-inch turrets - including on Long Beach, as shown - are abso-tively your standard, WWII-type, single-5" gun houses. (Does anybody know why they went to something different on the Midways?)
But you know what I really like, in those pics of yours, Donny, are the superb views of Mk56 directors (or something damn close to 'em) up on those towers (also on Long Beach). Where'd you get those pics, Don?