The experience of my S-37 build has pointed up the need for a more thorough understanding of the evolution through various fits on the USN S-18 class subamarines, particularly in the early months of WWII. This thread presents my findings in detail - I hope you enjoy it!
Cheers,
-Matty
S-37: A Christmas-Sack O' REFERENCES!
Posted by Matty on December 25, 2010, 10:32:10, in reply to "S-BOAT: Details of Form and Fit, into WWII" Message modified by board administrator June 10, 2012, 17:34:07
--Originally posted 12/25/10--
Recently I discovered significantly more reference pics and data on S-37:
Including these of her ship's bell and one of her two diving-control wheels, which apparently remain preserved today, at the San Diego Ship Museum in San Diego, California.
But the real finds were several additional historical references - including not only more pics but also further notes/data on the several already in hand, such that a much more comprehensive photo-history for S-37 can now be pieced together:
Beginning with her origin, in the leftmost image above, S-37 slides down the ways June 20, 1919. To its right in the same frame, the next chronological pic shows her stern in October, 1923, as casualties of an engine room explosion were being removed.
At center, the next three pics all date from precisely 10/29/24: the top two wherein she is tied up (somewhere) within a nest of her all (then-) identical-looking mates of Division 17 alongside their tender Canopus in Apra Harbor, Guam. At bottom, on the same day S-37 is seen underway - no doubt very close to, if not within the same harbor. Note her sail has already acquired its final configuration, to be retained throughout her remaining (20 years of) service.
At right, three more pics from about this same period - "circa 1925" - show at-sea refuelling (right) and posing as if at gunnery practice (two at left), the latter annotated to have originating from Tsingtao, China. Note coarse deck planking appears limited to the circular gun platform only, with the foredeck remaining completely bare metal. Also note some great detail on the early 4" gun. (Though, posing - as the swab at lower-left - behind the breach of a recoil-mounted cannon is a bad/stupid place to be! )
But there are more discoveries - some of them, pure gold:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Also dating from sometime during 1925, S-37 is seen in drydock at Olongapo, Philippines - this view confirming our drawings' portrayal of several details: torpedo tube doors, forward and belly hull form, plating joints and lengthwise-running bumper/stabilizer vanes, along her beam and other stream lines both above- and below the waterline. Note the early-design hydrophone heads - a "T"-shaped fitting, protected inside a small cage, looking like a low handle - located on the foredeck, above and behind the partly-extended bow plane.
In the early-mid '30s, pics of S-37 are again attributed to Tsingtao, China:
At left, somtime during 1930, S-37 is again nested with her Division 17 sisters - undoubtedly alongside a sub tender, from which both pics were taken - while on "Asian Station" at Tsingtao. S-37 appears to be very close if not identical in every respect to her S-18 class companions S-36, -39 and -41, whose gun platform planking now appears finer than before (on S-37 in 1925) and continues, unbroken both forward- and aft, as well. At right, two pics dating to 1935 and again ascribed to Tsingtao, reveal coarser planking again returning to the gun deck, and extending unbroken (at least) aft. Note also details of the early 4" deck gun, whose barrel was secured, when not in use, to a heavy post, detachable from the gun platform.
Our next two pics of S-37 appear to date from about a year later:
Click on Image to Enlarge
In these two views - the bottom one dated "1936" and once more attributed to Tsingtao, China - S-37 is seen to be identical in practically every respect - even the photo/film quality looks very similar - and so the one at top is presumed likewise to have originated from (at least roughly) this same time, and place as well. In any case, the bottom pic demonstrates she has by now lost her aft skeg, in favor of a vertical cannister-looking escape trunk, and - visible in both pics - also acquired the characteristic, heavy, stepped-light posts which attended removal of the aft skegs, administered to the various boats between about 1925-35.
The final pair of historical pics, we can pretty firmly conclude, also came from a single time-period, and operating theater:
Click on Image to Enlarge
These are the only two pics found showing S-37 (the nearest/outboardmost sub, in both pics) painted overall black - shiny and brand-new paint, with white hull numbers of identical size and style in both. Though neither is dated, the bottom pic was annotated "Olongapo", Philippines, which is where the outbreak of WWII would find S-37. Likwise, the all-black/large-numbers paint job - and (at bottom) the later '30s-vintage hydrophone head, looking like a Tom-Tom (white), stood on-edge atop a low 5-legged mounting looking like a black spider - are both characteristic of the immediate pre-war to early WWII time frame. Indeed, (at least) several boats not upgrading to the newer hydrophone ("White-Ball-on-a-tripod") fit, in just the final weeks before WWII, would continue to retain the rig shown here until (at least) well into 1943. So these two pics could well show the precise apperance of S-37 (sans large, white numbers while on patrol, of course) at the pinnacle of her career: on February 8, 1942, when she sank the IJN destroyer Natsushio, in the Makassar Strait, southwest off the Celebes islands.
In any case, note also the bottom pic remains our earliest one which shows S-37 fitted with the conical, "trunk" fairing, protruding from the starboard side, abaft the crew access hatch, forward - though (maddeningly) no other views since 1930 even show the starboard bow area.
All-in-all, though, that's a pretty decent photo-journal of S-37 and her various (re)fits, over the years, eh? If anyone's got a line on yet more pics of S-37, please do - as always - sing out and let me know!
As with practically everything else throughout the S-18 class, the sails evolved through substantial modifications, applied in different variants and at different times, to the various boats.
The earliest sail, which was apparently standard throughout the entire class, was also one of the more complex-looking sails ever fitted to a sub:
Click on Image to Enlarge
With its plethora of bars, railings, ridges and rectangular cutouts - often additionally complicated by recognition markings, including such as the dark field under the number, seen here - this early island can be difficult to define, visually. Particularly around the base, where it also becomes confused with railings, etc., on the deck.
In actuality, howver, the basic underlying structure appears to have been rather simple:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At left, as-launched (top-left) the sail appeared like something of civil war vintage; simply a central conning tower surrounded by a housing, the latter divided at the level of the viewports into a lower "foot", surrounding the base, and upper "can" housing an open bridge. Shown clearer at top-center, and -right, note the "foot" is fin-shaped; about waist-high and extending slightly forward of the conning tower, and much further, aft. Note also the front of the "bridge can" has been completely rounded and its height roughly doubled; this refit was apparently given to all the boats either before- or very soon after commissioning. In front of the conning tower, connecting the "bridge can" to the "foot", below, is a vertical cutwater; all the above creating, IMHO, the appearance of nothing so much as an early knight's helmet.
Note the streamlining of the "bridge can", including horizontal (fairwater) vanes on its sides, and fairwater around its upper rim, as well as upward-sweeping base, together give the impression of an open boat - and for exactly the same reasons, I am sure. Note from the overhead views that the "bridge can" has a teardrop-shaped plan, with its aft end fairing into a heavy vertical pipe, undoubtedly housing the main (air) induction; a primitive forerunner of the snorkel. The earliest pic of this fit is the one at top-right - showing S-37 - on May 4, 1923, while the latest is at top-center; showing S-40 in the early 1930s. At right, the sails of S-32 and S-33 are shown to have the same fit, purportedly as late as April, 1941, though 1931 would be a much more believable date for this pic.
Because the next sail modification - again, apparently received by all the boats - began to appear as early as 1924:
Click on Image to Enlarge
In this fit, the aft end of the "foot" was more than doubled in height - as demonstrated particularly well by the profile shot, at left, of S-22 (in RN commission) with sailors standing next to it, at center-left. Note the small forward extension remained at its original height. At top-left, -right and bottom-right, note the "foot" contains an access hatch and railing extending forward, ending at a pattern of half-moon shaped footholds climbing up the outside of the bridge can; curiously enabling travel along the outside of the sail, to get from the hatch to the bridge. A line of similar footholds (obscured by black paint in the top pics, but clearly visible at bottom-right) drops from the aft "foot" down to the deck.
At right, pics of S-37 at top and upper-middle prove that this fit was present on that boat (at least) as early as October 29, 1924. At right-middle, a pic of S-32 proves she retained this type of sail (at least) as late as 1943, as also pics at left; showing at middle-left, -right and bottom-left, 1943 views of S-22, S-21 and S-18, respectively.
Of course, numerous minor field modifications - particularly once WWII had begun - were no doubt fitted as well. One of the more prominent among these appears to have been wind/spray sheilds, on the open bridges:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Undoubtedly no coincidence that these examples derive from boats deployed to the Aleutians during WWII, note the great difference between the shield fitted to S-23 (top) in 1942, versus that - including viewports - installed on S-32 (bottom), during the same year.
Within a year or two, the vast majority - perhaps all - of the boats in the class received the final, and major, refit to their sails:
Click on Image to Enlarge
As part of what I've dubbed the "modernized" refit, the aft "foot" extension was removed, and the gap under the aft half of the "bridge can" plated over, as clearly seen at left for S-38 (top and bottom-left) and S-41 - the former dated as early as November, 1942.
Several apparently custom-variations are shown at center. At top, S-31 appears to have had only partial "foot" removal; its end raked aft and topped with a light platform, additionally supported by a single, heavy post, which is similarly - but not identically - observed on S-32, at upper-middle. Similar light platforms, supported entirely by latticework after complete removal of aft "feet", are likewise depicted for S-35 and S-28 at lower-middle and bottom, resepectively - though again they are not identical; S-35's platform (mounting, notice, a shielded-20mm - or possibly 0.50-cal - AA gun) being sited much lower than S-28's.
At right, more views of S-28 reveal that the aft platform was round and, especially when combined with flaring railing and other features of the new sail, created a strong resemblance to a Type VII U-boat, when viewed head-on (bottom-right). (Small wonder that WWII submariners were very wary - and justifiably so - of "friendly fire" aircraft attack.) This may indeed be a major reason why later refits (to other classes, at least), either omitted such platforms or placed them ahead of the conning tower, rather than aft. In any case, they did not appear substantial enough to support any really effective (i.e., 40mm) AA weapons.
So there (in general) you have it; an evolution in fit of the sails creating appearances ranging from civil war monitors all the way to Type VII U-boats!
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: Unraveling THE SAIL
Posted by Sirago on June 28, 2009, 14:20:55, in reply to "Unraveling THE SAIL"
agree very complicated the building process of the sail itself must have been complex certainly did not lend itself volume production in a shipyard. the sail desighn i have been struggling with is the V boat sail iI have been back to the drawing board several times. Do you have any intent of making castings of the sail matty?
I thought the V-class boats had a pretty simple, "standard" early WWII sail - weren't they (among) the first fleet boats?
To answer your question, sure: I will mold any sail(s) I make - provided there's enough interest out there. But it will also be quite some time - months, at least - because I'm 'way "in the weeds" in my new products development; delayed by a lot of retooling (and setbacks) over the last year-plus.
But, when I finally get to building this S-37 sail, be sure and remind me, and I'll mold it for sure, Bill!
And again, send me pics of whatever you're workin' on, to share with the world, buddy!
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: V-boats, eh...?
Posted by Sirago on June 30, 2009, 13:33:44, in reply to "V-boats, eh...?"
v boats were pre WWII and were very large subs. carried two six inch deck guns i will send you some in progress photos
Nautilus, Narwhal and Argonaut, right?
Posted by Matty on July 1, 2009, 18:39:59, in reply to "Re: V-boats, eh...?"
Weren't these the three V-class boats? And didn't they all start out with the very simple, "fleet boat" sail, like Gato first had? Or are you talking about a later fit(s) from WWII?
If you put me on the right track, I might be able to help you dig up/figure out some reference pics, Bill!
Speaking of which, I did have plans to one day build a Nautilus from early WWII - and I'll copy that sail, too, if there's any interest out there.
the V boats were i think very unique ,the Narwhal was 381" long, 2 6'deck guns ,3 20mm aa guns, raised deck with 4 deck torp tubes, carried life boats in the deck . once you look closely the norwhal (N1) (ss167)you will see its unique . i first did a simple sail and found that i had misinterprated the levels in the sail and it was more complicated then i thought
I concurr - took a look on NavSource, and they have nine boats classified as (at one time or another, anyway), the "V-boats":
Barracuda Class SS-163 Barracuda ex V-1 SS-164 Bass ex V-2 SS-165 Bonita ex V-3
Argonaut Class SS-166 Argonaut ex SM-1 & APS-1 & ex V-4
Narwhal Class SS-167 Narwhal ex V-5 SS-168 Nautilus ex V-6
Dolphin Class SS-169 Dolphin ex V-7
Cachalot Class SS-170 Cachalot ex V-8 SS-171 Cuttlefish ex V-9
Note Narwhal forms her own (sub-)class, along with Nautilus (which class I thought Argonaut was also in, but apparently she, too, was unique).
Anyway, I'd love to present any in-progress pics you want to send me, Bill. And maybe also join you in a "Group Narwhal Class Build", with my long-planned Nautilus SS-168, too. Might could share some valuable sail findings!
Undoubtedly the most dramatic change(s) experienced by the S-18 class boats - roughly on a par with the transformations, at about the same time, undergone by the Lexington class carriers - was the refit evolution of the upper aft casing - ultimately affecting even the aft deck, as well.
Originally, the S-18 boats were launched with a dorsal skeg; a long vertical "fin" connecting the aft tip of the deck to the top of the rudder:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At left, note the skeg is the only exposed part of the stern; its dagger-like appearance, especially in the upper-middle pic, belying the extensive underwater hull and stabilizers, just below the surface (the latter actually faintly visible in the cloudy water). All but the bottom pic date from the early '20s, the one at lower-middle being the earliest I found, depicting a complete skeg; on S-37 in October, 1923. At bottom, a pic dating to the early '30s reveals the skeg on S-38 (inset) remains virtually identical - right down to the lashing ring, which is also just visible on S-40, at bottom-left. So (at least) these boats retained the skeg, unchanged, for (at least) a full decade, after launching.
However it appears that several nose-down sinkings and/or strandings during the '20s prompted the installation of a stern escape hatch/trunk; necessitating (at least partial) removal of the skegs, in a "safety program" of refits. Most boats appear to have undergone it in the late '20s - early '30s, however the 3 graphics to the right, above, clearly prove that some (at least) started losing their skegs far earlier. At center-left and -right, S-32 reveals her (apparently uniquely) modified skeg; with just a section simply removed from the middle; the yard pics at center-right undoubtedly showing the actual refit work, dating it to October 2, 1923. At far right, a pic captioned "S-30 - S33 - S-20" may show the start of the more standard, full-skeg removal, dated also in the caption to "October 2" of either "1926", -"28" or -"23" (the last number being illegible, but most resembling a "6", IMHO).
Whatever the precise start date for each refit, once begun each boat apparently proceeded along the same evolutionary path of refits, extending up to WWII:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The first modification, which I dubbed the "slant-chopped" appearance, seems to have been just that; the skeg was simply chopped off, and with it the extreme aft tip of the deck, and slice of underlying casing, leaving a tiny flat, forward-sloping "transom" - shown particularly clearly at top. The forward slope angle appears identical for S-31, -32 & -33 at top, as well as S-36 and her close sisters (including S-37) at middle. However the lead ship of the class, S-18, at bottom - as well as several others of the class (not shown) - clearly got the chop at a significantly lower angle. The top pic is dated "1930s", which is consistent with its inter-war gray/black paint job, as also seen at middle and bottom; only the latter being implausibly dated to February 4, "1943" - though -34 would be far more likely.
By the early- to mid-'30s It appears all boats in the class had progressed through the above and on to the next stage of refit, which I dubbed the "cannister-chopped" stern:
Click on Image to Enlarge
A full-height, stern escape trunk was added, and transom refined adjacent to it, as clearly shown at left; the top pic showing S-36 (right), S-32 (center) and (S-42 class boat) S-47, in 1936. Likewise, at upper-middle, lower-middle and bottom, S-31 dated "1932", S-28 dated "mid-'30s" and S-37 with her near-sisters, undated, respectively, show the "cannister-chopped" fit as well. Note it includes a small wedge-like hump atop the aft tip of the deck, creating, from some angles the appearance of two escape trunks, though there was only ever one, AFAIK.
The all-black paint and (white) block numbers - plus other features visible in the latter pics - belie the above dates; arguing instead for the early- or immediate pre-WWII period, and the graphic at right proves unequivocally that (at least) some, probably most, of the boats exhibited the "cannister-chopped" stern well into WWII, including at top, S-41 in 1942; at middle, S-22 under RN operation in April, 1943; and at bottom, S-21 circa 1943-44.
Circa 1943, apparently most boats, on their first wartime return stateside for major overhaul, received the final, and by far the most radical refit to (among other things) their aft ends:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At left, this transformation, which I dubbed the "modernized" fit, is shown for S-35 on May 2, 1943. Riding high, she reveals the escape trunk has been cut down (or removed), and the aft casing apparently removed yet further forward. Note also the sole remnant of the original skeg is simply a raked vertical stabilizer for the rudder. At bottom, in more typical, stern-down trim, S-28 on January 23, 1943 appears, from this low angle, to resemble the original, complete-skeg boats, at the stern. This is yet more pronounced in pics of her at center; the top two from the same date as above. Of course, other features identify the fit as the "modernized" type, but, from a distance the clearest recognition is from overhead, as shown for S-21 and again S-28, at lower-middle and bottom, respectively.
At right, an apparently common - if not predominant - variation of "modernized" refit included a gentle but distinct hump, just before the aft end; ergo, my ad-hoc naming of it as the "humpbacked" fit. At top-left and -right it appears to good advantage on S-38 and S-41, respectively; moored opposite sides of the same pier and photographed (I decided) on the same day in April, 1943. At middle, a low side-view of S-38 in November, 1942 leaves no question of her identity as a uniquely "humpbacked" refitted boat, and at bottom, even the forward quarter-view of S-38 - again from the above photo-shoot in 4/43 - reveals the hump to create a bulging, more rounded look to the aft casing than on any of the original-fit boats.
The "modernized" fits were the last to be seen by the class during WWII, after which all were (finally) decommissioned. Meantime, it had been quite an "evolutionary history" of stern refits - the Tale of The Tail(s) - for this class, eh?
Going into WWII there was a second, minor casing bulge, forward of the deck gun platform, which appeared on just a few S-18 boats - but those included the S-37 boat which I am building:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At left is the sole implicating pic of S-37; undated, but the all-black camo indicating an early- or immediately pre-WWII time frame. Likewise, at right, during WWII the same conical flaring of the forward casing, approximately abaft the crew access hatch, is seen; at top, on S-41 in 1942, and on S-28 in all the other pics, taken in June, 1943.
At first, I took this casing bulge to be enclosing an enlarged forward escape trunk, or similar, uniformly surrounding the forward hatch. However, close inspection of the above, overhead pic of S-28 (right, at bottom-right), revealed it to be located starboard-side only; accommodating a second hatchway or trunk, covered by a circular plate, located just aft and outboard of the crew access hatch, and of roughly the same diameter.
I also realized that, In pics from any other angle(s) than above, this second hatch/trunk would appear all but undetectable. So I re-examined all available S-18 pics, for traces of this feature:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At left, pics of S-28 - all from dates we know she carried this forward trunk - show how subtle are the indications of it, when viewed from less advantageous angles. Viewed head-on (upper left; top inset), the trunk hatch or cover plate appears - behind the clutter of stanchions - just to the left of the dark, raised disk of the forward hatch; it appears as a light, similarly-sized disc, not raised but instead slightly countersunk into the deck. At bottom (and middle inset), viewed across the deck from portside, appearing in about the right place is what looks like a slightly raised cover (with sailor apparently handling it), having a bellows-looking skirt or shroud apparently suspended underneath.
At right, earlier pics allow us to begin to set boundaries on the dates when these trunks were installed. At top, a pic of S-28 misdated "mid-late '30s" must, due to the all-black camo and other features, date instead from the early '40s; either just prior- or early in WWII. Although a heavy stanchion (from the foreground sub) directly screens the view, an open, forward trunk shaft - with no cover apparent - can be perceived, as well as the casing bulge to accommodate it. Note again, the rim appears slightly recessed into the deck, and mooring (or electrical) cables appear to be going down it. At bottom (and middle inset), S-28 is moored inboard (foreground) on May 4, 1923, clearly showing no evidence of the trunk; neither any countersunk feature(s), nor any bulge(s) in the (far side of the) casing. Do note, however that S-28, and S-25 next to her, both exhibit angular hatches/doors opening out of the deck just aft of this area; a large one opening forward, and smaller one, just ahead of the gun platform, opening outboard to starboard.
Clearly, the forward trunks in question did not appear until after - by all indications long after - the boats entered service:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At left, the boats were launched - like S-37 on June 20, 1919, at top-left - absent, of course, the forward trunk or in fact any casing bulge(s) at all. Instead, what appeared in its place was a recessed cleat, as seen at top-right (upper insets) on other boats (S-38 & -40) as late as the "early '30s". The overhead view of S-37 at center (middle-left inset) reveals no evidence of the trunk - neither a round cover, nor casing bulge (behind the sailor coming out the forward hatch) on its date of 10/29/24. More to the point, the bottom pic, again dated "early '30s", clearly confirms no forward trunk but instead the recessed cleat, described above.
Likewise, at right, two pics taken (undoubtedly minutes apart) the same day in the early 1930s, reveal S-41, moored outboard S-38 and -40 to show no trace(s) of the trunk in question, but instead faint indications of the starboard-side cleat, and mooring lines tied to it; behind S-38's deck gun sights (bottom-right inset).
Thus, none of these three boats - S-28, -37 nor -41 - appears to have gotten this forward trunk before (at least) after the early 1930s; very likely, not even until the early '40s.
Finally, evoking "variations on the variations" within this class, there is subtle but repeated evidence of a yet smaller, forward "mini-trunk" on (at least) two boats:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At left, S-31 from overhead, dated "1943-1945" is in the mid-WWII refit and shows what looks (despite the graininess) like a half-moon cover - cut straight along the outboard edge; flattening the casing bulge accordingly - in precisely the forward trunk location. At bottom, in March of 1929 it was absent from S-31; the earlier starboard-side cleat appearing (in an equally grainy view) in its place. At center, similar observations hold for her immediate-next-of-kin sister, S-32, appearing, at top, on January 31, 1944 with a small but distinct slanting ripple in the casing; consistent with a flattened bulge (i.e., bisected cone) at precisely the right spot. At bottom-left, a closeup dated 1942 is again (maddenigly) obfuscated by a sailor's hooded head, but clearly shows deck planking interrupted by a rounded patch of smooth plating - possibly also with minor outboard bulging of the casing - and a notable lack of mooring lines going to this spot, as well. At bottom-right, still earlier, in April, 1941, mooring lines do tie into a starboard cleat at this spot, however just aft there is indication of the (light) casing bulging slightly, as well as a (dark) possibly open cover; directly behind the keister of the squatting sailor.
At right, yet earlier pics of S-32 - the top two before (at least) March, 1932, and center again from March, 1929 - all confirm the lack of any forward trunk and/or presence of the (black-painted) recessed cleat, in its stead. However the top two do exhibit bright patches possibly consistent with the early, further-aft door, shown open on S-32 in the bottom-right pic; undated but identifiably early (per the style of limber holes). Located just ahead of the gun platform - i.e., just aft of the future forward trunk site - I strongly suspect that something(s) of its contents, exposed earlier to free-flooding in the casing, were moved forward and down into the protection of the pressure hull by the forward trunk- and "mini-trunk" refits, installed just before WWII, but in any case not widely adopted by other boats of the class.
Cheers,
-Matty
A FOURTH (Fifth?) Boat sporting The TRUNK!
Posted by Matty on September 26, 2012, 10:19:23, in reply to "Sniffing out THE TRUNK" Message modified by board administrator September 26, 2012, 10:31:05
Annotated (sometime during) "1935", and "Olongapo, Philippines", S-39 is found with a trunk at exactly the "right" time - and deployment - consistent with our other sightings, so far.
And it revises the plausibility that S-38, earlier rejected (based on a questionably annotated pic) may indeed have been a Trunk-bearer after all - particularly since both her closest-sisters - S-37 and (now) -39 - were packing trunks while stationed right alongside her, in the Philippines. (Though I still think the pic in question was taken in 1938, not '28.)
So we now have definitely four - very likely five - boats with The Trunk, fully (at least) 75% of them stationed together in the Philippines, at the outbreak of the war. This is very much per Donny's hypothesis - with the notable exception that the Far East commando/resupply functions must have been anticipated significantly before the outbreak of (open) hostilities.
In any case, if anybody out there knows of any other pic(s) showing The Trunk - especially on any additional boats - do let me know!
Cheers,
-Matty
Another Trunk Sighting!
Posted by Matty on December 25, 2010, 11:52:17, in reply to "Sniffing out THE TRUNK" Message modified by board administrator June 10, 2012, 17:14:41
--Originally posted 12/25/10--
Here is another pic of an S-18 class boat, which I recently discovered:
Despite low-contrast and even poorer (level with the deck) viewing angle, note plating contours indicating the conical fairing for the "trunk", configured exactly and in the same location as already observed on this boat (see below) - but with the exception that its top hatch is not flush/recessed but here apparently a domed, hemispheric bulge.
There was a question about both the year of the picture date and identity of the boat - which I believe the (on-line) source seemed to have mistakenly transposed, between "28" and "38". The boat is almost certainly S-28, for which we have other pics showing her in later years equipped with this trunk (though not with a domed cap, but apparently a flat one). Meantime, the fit of both the heavy, forward light-post and, behind it, the "Tom-Tom-on-a-Spider" hydrophone rig cannot be from as early as "'28" (1928), but instead must (and very plausibly would) date to circa-1938.
This would thus be the earliest-yet pic of S-28 showing the trunk - proving that its installation predated even her pre-WWII all-black repainting (though not necessarily by much more than this). And the domed hatch would be an early/initial design, later replaced by the flush-closing version.
The S-boats made up Caviite's complentment of boats along with USS Canopus. Upon the PI's fall, the boats left and as the crews were intimately more familiar with the area than anyone else in SUBPAC would have been, the old Caviite skippers and their boats were tasked with the resupply of the guerrilla groups.
A boat's topside is littered with hatch covered lockers and storage spaces. So is it possible that a few of the spaces were amalgamated into one large space and then given a trunk? Is it possible that this was done to make the resupply effort more simple, ie; one hatch to empty instead of fifteen? S-39 in particular, was guilty of many such raids into Japanese terrorities.
Cheers,
Don
You may be onto something there, Donny!
Posted by Matty on June 21, 2009, 10:08:00, in reply to "Hmmmm...a Philippino boat mod?" Message modified by board administrator June 21, 2009, 17:11:15
Very engaging hypothesis there, Don! And easy enough to investigate - at least a little bit further - by looking at the DANFS histories of these 5 boats. Of the three clearly having the "full trunk", S-37 and S-41 were indeed very active in the Philippines - actually, with the Asian Squadron for (at least) the entire decade prior to WWII. But the third one, S-28, had not been based further west than Pearl Harbor and then returned to San Diego to teach Underwater Sound Training School. Meantime, the remaining two - S-31 and S-32; the ones appearing to have had "mini-trunk"s - only operated, in the decade leading up to WWII, between New London, the Panama Canal and/or Bermuda. So, the feature couldn't have been strictly a "Philippino mod".
However I still think your basic premise of a "commando/transport" type fit could well be right. Because I also noticed something else, from DANFS, about the "non-Philippines" boats S-28, S-31 and S-32: all 3 were in overhaul on December 7, 1941. What I'm thinking is that, with the outbreak of war, this capability was clearly (if belatedly) recognized as urgently desired - based on the experience in the Philippines - and accordingly the trunks were installed ASAP on the boats ready-to-hand. And that "commando-ready" dry storage - and/or possibly diver/swimmer lockout - seem highly likely as the function(s) of these trunks.
Furthermore, according to DANFS four of the entire five - all but S-37 - were also sent on to the Aleutians, immediately as available. (The only reason S-37 didn't go, apparently, being that by then she was in really poor material condition.) So, it seems these boats were indeed tapped heavily (percentage-wise), for immediate use - even if they didn't end up doing much, if any, commando-type work in Alaska ( something nobody could have known ahead of time, anyway).
So, I think the evidence tends to support your theory, Donny - I'm certainly willing to buy into it!
Although "Nothing Standard" should be the motto of this class, there was one feature which was nearly consistent; on almost all the boats, for the great marjority of their service lives: the forward casing bulge, to accommodate the deck gun platform:
Click on Image to Enlarge
This roughly cylindrical flaring of the casing expanded to support the basically circular gun deck, fairing back into the casing fore- and aft both smoothly and fairly gradually. Its vertical sides (as opposed to outward-flaring sides, in other classes) are seen clearest from ahead or astern; appearing as early as the mid-'20s - as on S-40 in the early '30s, at top right - clear through to the WWII refits, as on S-28, -38 and -41 at top-left, bottom-left and bottom-right, respectively - all photographed during 1943.
However I did identify two exceptions - one general, and one individual:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The general exception appears to be that most boats - including S-37, as shown at top-left - if not all of them, were launched without any gun platform, and no casing bulge(s) of any kind. Whether the platform and accompanying bulge were added during fitting-out, before commissioning, or refitted shortly thereafter was not explicitly learned.
However the second, individual exception I ran across - shown in the larger pic; of S-30 moored outboard S-32 (& -33) in April, 1941 - may provide a further clue. Note S-30, over two decades after launching, still does not yet have the full, standard bulge, but instead a much smaller. more sponson-like support; looking more "bolted-on" than integrated smoothly into the casing. The fact of its retention on S-30 - (at least) up until WWII - argues strongly that it functioned adequately; meanwhile the absence of this fit on any other S-18 boat, ever, argues equally strongly that it must have "taken second place" to the more widely adopted design, above. Thus, I conclude S-30 represents evidence of retrofit-prototyping program; to develop the best gun platforms and install them sometime after commissioning, but before the mid-'20s, certainly.
In fact, the next class of S-boats - the S-42 class - would adopt a smaller, sloping bulge for the gun platform; looking like a hybrid just about exactly halfway between this S-30 fit and the standard (vertical-sided bulge) of the rest of the S-18 class.
Cheers,
-Matty
A Second "Mini-Sponson" Sighting!
Posted by Matty on June 2, 2009, 23:48:33, in reply to "Battle of THE BULGE" Message modified by board administrator June 10, 2012, 17:03:37
--Originally posted 6/2/09--
I just found another pic, revealing another view of the small, sponson-like gun platform support noted earlier for S-30:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Half-blocked by a gangway (inset), it looks to be of identical size and with sides flaring at the same angle as seen on S-30 in April, '41. The middle sub's gun platform support is even more obscured, but (from a glimpse of the limber line) appears to be of the more standard, vertical-sided-bulge type. The far sub's platform is completely hidden.
At lower left, the pic is annotated "S-30 - S-33 - S-20", which raises two possibilities: 1) the inboard sub is again S-30 - and, viewed from their bows and listed left-to-right, the group would indeed begin with this sub - or; 2) this is discovery of a second "mini-sponson" - identical to S-30's - fitted to S-20 as well.
In any case, the big "news" about this pic is that it dates firmly to the '20s. The precise date is annotated (again, at lower left) on the pic: "Oct 2" of either "1923", "1926" or "1928" - I simply can't make out the last digit - not even with any amount of CG help. However the '20s time period is further confirmed by the dorsal skeg (under inset) on the sub in question (and no doubt the two others as well).
Either way, it confirms the earlier conclusion that these gun platforms were fully in place by (at least) the late '20s, and that the "mini-sponson" prototype remained virtually unchanged (at least on S-30), for the following two decades!
Kinda pathetically geeky to be getting worked up about this sorta thing, huh?
In most builds, the biggest question about deck planking is what color it was - less of an issue for most subs - but in this case, the question is of the very existence of planking; exactly where was it installed (if anywhere), on a given S-18 class boat?
So far, all reference pics suitable - i.e., taken close enough and sharp enough - to show planking, agree on only one thing:
Click on Image to Enlarge
It appears that, in all cases, prominent planking was laid around the base of the (sole) deck gun; as seen here for S-32 (right), and S-30 (left), in a pic dated April, 1941. On both subs, note the adjoining decks areas - ahead as far as the forward hatch, and behind all the way aft - exhibit practically no texture at all; if they are planked, then it must be with extremely fine, flush-mounted planks (see below) - virtually undetectable here. From the hatch forward to the tip of the bow, S-32 clearly has no planking; but instead rows of rivets and/or small flood holes, unmistakeably indicating a bare (steel) deck.
But very different foredecks are readily in evidence:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Note in all these shots, planking continues, seamless and uninterrupted, beyond the gun platform; extending both forward (at least) to the hatch, and - where shown - aft to (at least) abaft the sail (and actually past the sail, as subsequent pics, below, will show). At top-left and -right, pics show S-40 in 1935 and earlier, in 1930, respectively, while at bottom S-23 is shown, in 1942.
By far the majority of relevant pics indicate such extended, foredeck planking:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At top, no doubt shot the same day as the 1935 pic of S-40, above, this pic reveals S-38 and S-41 nested alongside her; all three displaying extended foredeck planking, with the views of S-38 and -40 revealing it to be raised, in very much the same fashion as the gun deck planking observed on S-30 and -32, above - except now extending forward to just short of the hatch. At bottom-left, a closeup of S-32's bow, revisited in 1942, reveals planking now extended forward to just ahead of the forward hatch - as is also the case at bottom-right for S-28, seen head-on June 10, 1943.
In addition, beyond the ends of the raised planking, on S-40 and S-38 (top), as well as S-32 (bottom-left), the pics present faintly visible textures suggesting that additional, very fine planking - flush-mounted and very tight; like parquet flooring - continues forward perhaps as far as the sonar head (globe-on-a-stick, in the mid-war pics).
Regarding my own build, a couple pics of S-37 date from far too early, but may prove helpful to the more general description, particularly regarding the deck further aft:
Click on Image to Enlarge
This pic (with insets at full-resolution), dated 10/29/24, reveals 4 distinct deck surfaces, IMHO. There is a black (-painted) circular gun platform - presumably with heavy, raised planking as on S-30 and -32 in mid-1941, above - and the (steel) tips of the extreme deck ends are likewise painted black. In between, the deck transitions through three shades of gray; the lightest of which exhibits no texture, extending from the bow back to, again, about the location of the sonar head, while both of the darker tones are accompanied by a faint texture, again suggestive of a delicate/flush type of planking. The darker of the two appears to begin at the forward hatch and to extend - interrupted only by the gun decking - clear back to the aft hatch, the next lighter shade again resuming to continue back to the (black) steel aft tip. Thus, it appears at least two - and quite possibly three - types of planking cover this deck almost completely, from he bow sonar aft.
However, a still earlier pic of S-37 presents yet another contradiction:
Click on Image to Enlarge
Removing casualties following a mishap in October, 1923, the men looking down mark the location of the after hatch; the deck visible in the foreground is well within the fine-planked area presumed above, yet in this pic - which is easily close enough to see - there is absolutely no indication of planking. So, either S-37 was, in her early years planked only around her deck gun - again, just as S-30 and -32, as late as April, 1941 - or S-37s deck had been extensively reworked - almost completely planked-over from the original steel - sometime between late 1923 and late '24. Given the range of modifications definitely known to have been applied to these boats, I consider either scenario to be quite plausible.
Ironically, this earliest of my reference pics, depicting an unplanked steel deck aft, is consistent with the latest pics; showing the mid-war refits:
Click on Image to Enlarge
At left, the aft deck of S-28 on June 10, 1943 appears very smooth, flanked by rows of limber holes, lining the deck edge. On the foredeck, a faint texture clearly suggests planking, and extends to just ahead of the forward hatch, just as observed earlier, from head-on. At right, S-41 (top) and S-38 (bottom) in April, 1943 (no doubt on the same day; while moored opposite sides of the same pier) - confirm steel decks aft, and, beginning shortly aft of the sail, a heavy, raised deck; no doubt consisting of coarse planking.
Together, the above - spanning a full two decades, and numerous different boats - argues that there simply was no "standard evolution" of deck layout for these boats, but instead that each went through its own unique evolution, per its own unique timeline. If any generalization is possible, it would be that - for most boats, most the time - the foredeck was continuously planked with a heavy, raised planking; extending forward from just behind the island to the vicinity of the forward hatch, and - particularly by late 1943 - bare steel decks, aft. Of course, it was prior to this time that these boats performed all their most historic exploits - for which the precise appearance could be "anybody's guess"; depending entirely on the particular boat, and date.
And this is regarding just the decks so far; believe me, this is just scratching the surface, regarding these subs!
Cheers,
-Matty
Here's some more planking photos for you...
Posted by Don Murphy on May 23, 2009, 23:00:14, in reply to "Deck PLANKING" Edited by board administrator March 1, 2015, 12:56:01
--Originally posted 5/23/09--
Here's some S-Boat deck shots that I found in my stash. Hope they help you out with your deck planking questions.
Click on Image to Enlarge
This photo of S-1 during the 1920's seems to suggest forward and aft planking, --THO-- having said that, it may have been a feature related to the seaplane hanger.
Click on Image to Enlarge
This photo of S-14 and S-17 (also taken in the twenties) shows forward deck planking to great effect. Like later boats, the planking does not carry on to the bow.
Click on Image to Enlarge
S-29's deck planking appears to carry around the aft end of the sail, but where it stops eventually is anybody's guess.
Click on Image to Enlarge
S-36 during the 1930's loading torpedoes and also showing forward deck planking.
Click on Image to Enlarge
This nineteen thirties shot of S-4 shows solid metal decking aft. Or is it? Magnify the open hatch and look down near the left hinge. That looks like planking to me, doesn't it?
Click on Image to Enlarge
Here's S-4 again, this time shot during 1922. The forward deck planking clearly visible.
Click on Image to Enlarge
Here's S-43 mid world war two showing clearly perforated metal aft. You can clearly see where the deck planking ends at the aft end of the sail.
Click on Image to Enlarge
Here's a popular photo of S-44 during world war two showing the deck planking forward.
Click on Image to Enlarge
S-45 mid war showing the aft metal deck plating.
Click on Image to Enlarge
S-45 again, this time showing the clear break point in the front and aft deck planking.
Click on Image to Enlarge
In this shot, S-47's planking doesn't look like "planking" at all. More like perforated metal strips. However, note that at a quick glance, it looks like planking.
VERY interesting, Donny! Of course, the boats with lower numbers than "18", or higher than "41" are from different classes than the S-18 boats, but still very helpful to examine the typical materials/construction which you noted.
Not least of which being the last pic, of the mid-to-late-war fit of (at least) the S-47 boats, which I concur looks more like slotted steel plate on the deck than planking. Particularly considering those sections where the alignment goes askew; I have never seen planking, on any warship certainly, that wasn't laid down aligned precisely fore-and-aft).
Outstanding contribution, buddy - and with some great shots that I'll shamelessly pilfer, for use in upcoming posts of the other oddball features of the S-18 boats.
Cheers,
-Matty
Once WW2 got into full swing, all bets were off...
and when subs were taking down the first IJN warships, they became the Navy's golden boys and pretty much got whatever they wanted. The boat skippers then became like NASCAR drivers getting whatever tweaks they wanted. Imagine the pain when S-44's skipper gets more supplies and toys than a brand new Tench skipper!
So there was probably some weird stuff going on in the yards, both from combat experience and (in Fluckey's case) just plain old "hey, what if we do this?..." This is what makes boat research so interesting. I know Plunger's skipper commented that the squishing noise made by his wet wooden planks almost gave him away. As a result, Plunger's yard period was pretty much a master-class in how to build the perfect boat, with every Navy bureau looking at her with a fine tooth comb.
O'Kane's list of "why doesn't my boat do this" complaints was also read with a microscope. Sometimes, field mods would be done ahead of the proper gear. Case in point being rubber washers nailed everywhere to "sound mount" certain pieces of gear, pending the arrival of the new silenced equipment.
Donny, your mention of Gene Fluckey reminds me of another "dockside episode" I recently read about - and its operant principle: straight theft (LOL Just like in that Cary Grant movie.)
It was in the book "Cruisers for Breakfast"; where USS Dace (I think it was - if not, then USS Darter) was moored alongside a brand-new sub with improved radar dish, that sorely coveted. The guys - without the Skipper's knowlege (so he claimed, anyway) just walked aboard the other sub like they were the relief/repair crew, shinnied up the periscope shears with their old, crappy antenna and swapped it out with the new sub's reflector; then sauntered across the pier to install it on their own boat.
Supposedly, the Captain didn't notice or say a thing until at sea on their next patrol, when he remarked how much more skilled and effective the radar operator seemed to be getting! That book is full of cut-up stories just like that (even if also the most poorly written one I've ever seen! )
Anyway, regarding my S-37 build, one thing I have going in my favor is that I want to show her at the moment she became famous - so, she would not yet have gotten any special treatment, and, presumably therefore, would still closest resemble her Asiatic Squadron sisters; as just another "one of the pack", up to that point.
Still, anything(s) you come up with are greatly appreciated, for general interest/info - and I'll use 'em in the build, wherever applicable.