(MERCHANT / WORK ships:) 1:400 and 1:500 scale kits
Posted by Jim Bloom on September 11, 2008, 20:13:36 Message modified by board administrator September 13, 2008, 14:12:41
Greetings, Matty was kind enough to reply to my inquiry on the Ship Modeling Mailing List about finding kits (preferably merchant or naval transport/cargo/tug types) in 1:500 and 1:400 scale as 1:700 is just too tiny for my fingers any more and my eyesight can't handle this scale either.
I believe that Revell Germany and Lindberg are re-issuing some older models in approx. these scales but perhaps someone knows of other European or Asian kits --- warships okay, but prefer the merchant marine types.
Thanks again Matty and anyone else for suggestions.
This is a question occurring to anyone familiar with any two, or all three of these "flat-bottom boats":
At top, the tanker, most recently re-popped by Revell-DE as Glagow, and at middle and bottom the C-3 freighter and Haskell-class attack transport (PA), in their latest re-releases as Hawaiian Pilot and Montrose, respectively. All three molds have the same "look and feel" - particularly in their flat bottomed (well below the waterline) hulls, completely devoid of any surface detail. The beam of the tanker and freighter, in particular, are also so close that their main deck pieces fit almost interchangeably, especially amidships. Still, when built as waterline-displays (or when sunk partway into a shag carpet, as originally intended) all look remarkably like their intended depictions - in actuality some very different ship types. Could Revell have remarkably achieved such variation simply by cloning from a single, "generic" hull - say, by tweaking only its length, or a bulwark here and there? For years, no answer to the above was obvious to me - until I compared all three hulls, directly, side-by-side, to obtain a definitive "No".
In fact, all three hulls are so different that it seems remarkable that they could ever "look and feel" so similar, in the first place:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The lengths are indeed different, as indicated here by the extent of their fantails, with bows (not shown) roughly aligned. From left-to-right, we have the tanker (red), C-3 freighter (white) and attack transport (gray), respectively. But even more than their lengths, it is their contours - especially visible at the flat bottoms - which really prove the point. Note the tanker hull tapers aft rather abruptly, the contour going concave to end in a long skeg-like termination. In contrast, the C-3 hull tapers far more gently into its more gracile fantail, the flat-bottom contour making almost a perfectly straight line to its terminal point, aft. And the PA is an intermediate case, more like the C-3 than the tanker, but ending in a more rounded fantail than either. I don't see how any of the above could profittably have been converted from any other, or from any single, "generic" master - unless by "generic" we're backing up all the way to a featureless, rectangular block!
Additional differences at their bows only emphasize the point:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The leftmost three, again in the same lineup (AO-C3-PA), reveal bows which are again all distinct, in significant degree. Possibly the forepeak bulwark on the tanker and freighter are very similar, as is the identical rake of their stems, however their forepeak heights are very different, eliminating any possibility of direct cloning. Meanwhile, the bow of the attack transport exhibits a very different taper, with significantly more flaring of its top bulwarks. The only reasons I can think that they even "look and feel" similar, to begin with, are those already mentioned: the flat bottoms, the complete lack of hull-surface detail, and the similar-to-identical beam dimensions.
In contrast, the next two hulls to the right - the Revell Hope hospital ship (white) and Lindberg Navy Tanker (gray), respectively - are contemporaries of the above but with (a least somewhat) curved hull-bottoms, giving them a very different "look-and-feel" than the Revell flat-bottoms. They are also classics, in their own right:
Click on Image to Enlarge
The hull of the Lindberg tanker (bottom), is not even fully-rounded (at the "turn of the bilge") but exhibits the characteristic "half-rounding" found in several of these, as well as Renwal and Aurora kits of the day. However even this small amount of curvature is enough to give it a much more realistic appearance than the flat-bottomed Revell tanker - even though the shape of the Lindberg stern (not shown) is far less plausible.
On the other hand, the hull of the Revell hospital ship (variously released over the years as Hope, Haven and Repose) appears highly accurate (or at least, believable) in all respects, and is probably a near- if not perfect match for a seaplane-, submarine- or destroyer tender, right OOB. Note from the previous pic, the taper at its bow is also a good match for the Revell attack transport, in smaller (1/500) scale. And the hull is deep - good for bashing into a tanker or freighter alike, with the wide flare of its upper fantail appearing easily narrowed, given the skeg-like aft keel - again, very much as on the Revell tanker.
I am already engineering a full-hull extension for the Revell PA (Montrose, also released over the years as Burleigh and Randall) above, but what I am really excited by (though I have yet to build anything from it) is the Revell hospital ship, released in great numbers and accordingly available at reasonable prices - and with a little more luck, perhaps one day to be re-released at a real bargain by Revell DE, just like the above, flat-bottom boats. The Lindberg, in contrast, is a very rare kit, long OOP. (But I even snagged a boneyard example of that - so keep a lookout for what I might bash out of that one, too...!)
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: Revell Freighter/Tanker/Troopship: Clones or No?
That is very interesting Matty, thanks for sharing that. Do you know if any of the other models (besides Hawaiian Pilot and Hope) are available somewhere. Ron W.
The Revell DE Glasgow tanker and Montrose/Randall transport should have about the same distribution and availablility as your Hawaiian Pilot, all being re-released around the same time (2000's?). I would expect they are all three readily available on eBay.
eBay is also where to go for the Lindberg tanker (released as "US Navy Tanker", "Fleet Oiler" and Tehachappee, IIRC), but for that one you'll wait long and far between - and then compete to pay a high price.
If you're interested primarily in recoverable hulls (as I often am), look closely at eBay pics of "boneyard" collections being dumped for cheap. Sometimes an old Lindberg or even (more rare) a Renwal or two will be thrown into the jumble, the seller having no idea how rare those old kits really are, and you could pick them up, with the entire mess, for under $30 or so. (I've often considered asking a seller just to throw out all the rest, to save on shipping! )
Well, after the the H. Pilot I am going to finish a wooden vessel that I have semi-scratch building for the past seven years. I should have that done within another seven years!I would like to build a tanker, I remember the Mission Capistrano as a kid. I have seen a few of the afore mentioned models on a few sites, got excited, and then saw OUT OF STOCK. Another one I am looking for is the Shell Welder. Ron W.
I don't want to turn ModelFleet into a giant eBay promo, but this (Friday) morning, in just a quick look, I found the following two of the Revell tankers - same as Mission Capistrano, regardless the name(s):
And also - something I neglected to mention before - the Trumpy Liberty Ship is perfect for conversion, just as many were in real life, to a post-war freighter - and I ran across one of those Friday morning, as well:
I didn't even scan through to the end of the weekend (Sunday night being when most auctions end) so there could be even significantly more available, right now this weekend.
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: (MERCHANT / WORK ships:) 1:400 and 1:500 scale kits
the Renwal 1/500 kits are nice, way way overvalued however. For the bashers out there, the plastic is quite hard and brittle...I much prefer Revell,Lindberg,UPC if I'm chopping them up.
This is a small but classic line of merchant ships which Rajens' List describes as "...4 merchant ships that have a Sankyo (Japanese) heritage.". I am not expert enough to comment on this, but I can tell you that they are all full-hulled - and accurate-looking hulls - in thick plastic, with very sparse and basic (yet again, essentially accurate), details/fittings. Think: Lindberg, or some of the early Heller kits (several of which were also merchant subjects).
The following four kits (all of which I have in my stash), are all described by Rajens' as "Cold (War)…Freighter" - and they are all modern (i.e., post-WWII) ships, but all very distinctly different vessels, per the following:
=>Bahrain Freighter 1:400 This is a classic cargo ship - the direct modern counterpart to the earlier, Revell Hawaiin Pilot, for example - except again, with a beautiful, full hull. Note it is right at 400 scale; within your range of interest, Jim.
=> Trinidad Freighter 1:450 This is another modern cargoliner - but very different than Bahrain, above; having fewer derricks, and again a different - but again very plausible-looking - full hull. And this one is directly in the center of the 1/400-1/500 scale range of interest.
=> Rouen Roll-On/Roll-Off Ship 1:450 Like the others, described by Rajens' List simply as a "Freighter", this is in fact a "RO/RO" - a "Roll-On/Roll-Off" container ship; in which complete truck trailers (and vehicles for delivery) are driven on and shipped en masse, to be simply driven off again at the destination(s) - the mold comes complete with a moveable, extending stern ramp. It is a truly classic kit (though I haven't yet built mine) - and again, note it is dead center in your target scale range; at 1/450. Rajens' also notes that, "With a bit of haze grey paint, you could easily make this kit into the Cape Kennedy (T-AKR-5082) or the Cape Knox (T-AKR-5083)"; again, a modern counterpart of a merchant design working double-duty for the Navy as well.
=> Toyama ContainerShip 1:550 This is another vessel for whom Rajens' description as "Freighter" does not do justice to the reality of its design - and size - as a huge container ship. Ergo, note its smaller scale; while coming in the same sized box (approx. 20-inches long) as the others, above - but again, it is a distinctly different mold, from the keel on up through the entire superstructure. I can't recall if it actually comes with a pile of (deck-stowed) containers, as depicted by the box art. Especially with these depicted, it could make a very impressive build.
So, that's the IMEX line - not a lot of subjects, but for a merchantman enthusiast, some real classics - and good quality - to be found here. Even better, I've seen all of these lately available quite inexpensively - like, for $15.00-$20.00 - which of course is why Cheap Uncle Matty has snagged (at least) one example of each.
I know you said you don't like to scratchbuild/customize, but regarding your interest in an oceangoing tug, I realized I have actually worked with the kit which is probably the closest to a "box scale" example of such a vessel. It is the (now ex-)Heller Arktika icebreaker, which I modified, enhanced and discribed in detail in an article here.
And you're very welcome - thanks for bringing your interest(s) here to ModelFleet.
Now, for the rest of you - to get any of you to say even a single word to me these days - I'll give a FREE 4-PAK OF TWIN-3"50cal OPEN MOUNT GUNS, upcoming for release very soon, to the FIRST ONE TO NOTICE WHAT OTHER MAJOR DEVELOPMENT has occurred here at ModelFleet, over the LAST WEEK or so.
If injection plastic models depicting merchant/working vessels in these, 1/400-1/500 "box scales", can be considered a strange collection of beasts, then surely the "Noah's Ark" from which the majority originally emerged was Revell (though Lindberg came in perhaps a close second). For Revell, the following is the most comprehensive list (excluding passenger liners) which I have been able to assemble:
=> Da Noli Freighter 1:480 - aka: Benledi Rajens' List's codes describe this as a "Cold (War)...Cargo liner", which I guess is another way of saying a modern (i.e., post-WWII) freighter. Anyway, that's what it is (I have one and I know), and I list it first because it has a beautiful, full hull - looks very accurate - distinguishing it markedly from the bulk of the other Revell "Flat-Bottom Boat" merchantman molds (see below) - even though, according to Rajens', the "kit dates back to about 1968". Likwise, they suggest the last release was "circa 1991", by Revell-DE. That could well be, but I had no trouble picking one up over a full decade later than that.
=> Haven Hospital Ship - aka: Hope, Repose Though not technically a merchantman, still this is a utilitarian vessel which "has the look" - and another, rare example (for early Revell) having a just gorgeous full-hull. Rajens' List says it dates "back to around 1955", and was "re-issued under the SSP program in 1996". Though I haven't seen any re-releases, what I have seen is very plentiful availability on eBay (under all three names, above) - so there must have been a ton of them distributed.
=> Hawaiian Pilot Freighter 1:380 - aka: Doctor Lykes, Matson Line freighter, C-3 freighter, C-2 freighter This is a classic Revell "Flat-Bottom Boat"; not bad above the waterline (though dated and rather simple) - and extending significantly below as well - but then going completely flat just before the turn of the bilge. Not too much work for a waterline build - substantially more so to make it full-hulled. Rajen's claims the mold dates from "circa 1961", and that Revell-DE planned to re-issue it, as Hawaiian Pilot, in 2005 - and indeed I did pick one up exactly as such, earlier this year. They also claim close comparison with the very similar-looking Haskell-class attack transport (APA) - likewise a Flat-Bottom Boat, released as Montrose, Randall et.al. - definitively proves that neither mold is derived from the other. You sure could fool the casual observer, though!
=> Montrose Attack Transport 1:380 - aka: Randall, Burleigh This is the Flat-Bottom Boat attack transport (APA) mold which looks so similar (superficially, at least) to the Hawaiian Pilot/C3 freighter, above. According to Rajens' only Burleigh, actually a Bayfield-class APA, had a C3-type hull; the Montrose and Randall being Haskell-class ships, with VC2-S-AP5 hulls. All of which only goes to show, IMHO, that these hulls were all so similar - and Revell's dimensions for them accurate enough - that the difference is pretty unnoticeable. Rajens' claims the mold was originally issued as Randall circa 1956, however my own experience is that by far the most common variant - including Revell-DE's latest re-issue, which I snagged about 3 years ago - is boxed as Montrose. This kit was also extensively sold under the brand Advent.
=> Mission Capistrano T2 Tanker/Oiler 1:380 - aka: Glasgow, British Sovereign, J.L. Hanna Again, a Flat-Bottom Boat - except the below-waterline extent is nothing near as deep as the turn-of-the-bilge on the real thing. Rajens' lists it as a "Cold (War)" vintage, but it looks to me of significantly earlier design than that; would look just great alongside your Montrose, above, for example. The original issue, according to Rajens', was as the civilian J.L.Hanna, in 1955 - and indeed the latest re-release, again by Revell-DE, is boxed as the civilian Glasgow. It seems to me I have also seen some pretty recent boxings as British Sovereign as well. Still, since 1964 (according to Rajens') a very numerous variant - and again, I have seen this personally - is the military Mission Capistrano - which includes a few additional parts in the form of guns and tubs for them. This was another which was re-released in some quantity by AHM, an example of which I have.
=> Pine Island USN Seaplane Tender 1:400 - aka: Currituck, Norton Sound Again, a military craft - but with such obvious "working vessel" lines as to deserve mention here (and in fact, may quite possibly be the closest thing in this scale to the oceangoing tug you're seeking, Jim). Again, it is another Revell Flat-Bottom Boat - and another whose draft, like the T-2 tanker above, does not extend (even close) to the turn-of-the-bilge. According to Rajens', the original issue was in 1956 as Norton Sound; a missile-test ship - including different parts than in the seplane tender variants first boxed 10 years later. Over the decades, by far the most prevalent boxing appears (in my own experience) to have been as Pine Island. I believe I have also seen a fairly recent Revell-DE re-release of this mold - and it was defiinitely included very recently (as Currituck, IIRC) in the commemorative "Guided Missile Fleet" re-release - but together these must still not have been too extensive, as you don't see it around that much, nor at bargain prices.
=> Savannah Nuclear Freighter 1:380 This is another mold with beautiful, full hull - and, according to those who know (including Rajens' List), also the most accurate of the several distinctly different molds of this ship, in around this scale, by several manufacturers - truly a remarkable achievement for "around 1958", the initial release date claimed by Rajens'. I only list it last because its sleek, futuristic lines are much more evocative of a passenger liner than the more utilitarian-type ships about which the most interest was initially expressed. Although Rajens' List refers to a "recent Revell-Germany issue (kit #) 05235", I have seen zero evidence of it anywhere - suggesting that the more numerous distribution dates from Revell's "1980s 'History Makers' series as kit 8622". I do not have an example of this kit, but I do have the only slightly (8%) larger Glencoe mold; in 1:350 scale, and it looks pretty darn nice - maybe a more available/economical target to seek out on eBay.
So that's what I come up with - just for Revell - on merchantmen, circa 1/400-1/500; I hope it helps. Revell has several more as well, at larger scales still. And please don't tell me you're interested in passenger liners too - for then I will be forced to also tell you about:
# S.S. Brazil - Moore/McCormack Liner 1:420 - aka: Argentina # Finnjet - Silja Line Ferry 1:400 # Queen Mary 2 - Cunard Liner 1:400 # Titanic - White Star Liner 1:400 # Titanic - White Star Liner 1:570 # Queen Mary - Cunard Liner 1:568 # United States - US Liner 1:600 (!)
Now, who has more - and what manufacturer(s) do you want to investigate next?
Hi Matt, both the Savannah and the Hope have been recently reissued by Revell-DE. You can check this out in Hannants-UK from time to time, they have it on sale.
Actually, the number of merchant ship kits between about 1/500-1/400 scale is pretty decent - even more so, when you drop in the additional caveat "naval transport/cargo types". Many of the molds have changed hands over the years - and were reboxed as (whether accurately or not) as different subjects , so that the number of names to search for can become quite large.
Here's what you do:
1) Go to "RAJEN'S LIST" - it's long; wait for it to load completely - so pick a long, lazy weekend; when you can browse it for merchant/transport subjects under the following MANUFACTURERS listed there:
-ARII -FROG -Heller -Imex -Renwal -Revell
These half-dozen manufacturers have, over the decades, sold their molds to maybe a dozen other brands (most of them in Eastern European, ex-Eastern Bloc countries), some of whom are still producing these kits today. And yes, Revell DE is doing exactly the same for a couple of the Revell classics, as well.
Familiarize yourself with the codings used on Rajen's List - and check out the cross-links provided - to get a very good idea of what molds were made, under what names, and what subsequent names/brands where you might find them - maybe even in production - today.
And then, plug those names into a series of eBAY searches. If you're not familiar with how to do that, we can help you out there, too, buddy.
I'll let you try your hand at the above and get back to us with your next question(s), to see which way you are taking this, and where you might need a hand. (And also, to see what gold mines you can scare up for us!)
Oh - and BTW, it's a little larger than 1/400, but check out what I was able to do using the Trumpeter Jeremiah O'Brien kit.
Again, great to have you aboard ModelFleet, Jim!
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: OK, here we go...!
Posted by Jim Bloom on September 15, 2008, 9:52:47, in reply to "OK, here we go...!"
Thanks to Matty and John Bange for the great suggestions. I will certainly pursue them. I may not have mentioned that I write maritime and naval history, and my articles on ship design, naval strategy, etc. have been published in Sea Classics, Strategy & Tactics, among others.
I am a stickler for accuracy in the models. I also have noticed the Revell tendency to cut down their "full hull" models to make a flat bottom just at the bilge curve.
I've heard this explained away as being due to the Navy's censorship on the propulsion units of their Cold War warships, but this explanation rings false w/respect to the C-3 variants and the attack transport models, which were produced over 25 years after the last of these ships left the ways.
Most likely they were modeled this way because of the complexity of the underwater fairing and contour lines, etc. Plus it was relatively easier to make a stand on which to rest the flat bottomed models.
Again, thanks for the helpful replies and I will certainly be kept busy sorting out the various kits mentioned.
Jim, I can't believe I overlooked your post (above) - sorry, buddy! But now we're coming up on a year since then; I'm wondering what you came up with? If you have any pictures - of either completed or still in-progress build(s) - I'd love to post 'em, man!
Just send 'em to me - or post yourself, and I'll come along and clean up anything that may need it.
Hi Matty. I did a build of a Hawaiian Pilot from Revell Germany who re-issued the kit a couple of years ago. I'm afraid I made a botch of it. My hands are stiff with arthritis (I'm 70) and I can't do any fine work any more. So the paint job was terrible. I did get one from ebay that was originally built by the Revell factory for dealer display. I also acquired a rather neat shipping lines model of a Seabulk anchor handling supply tug for offshore wells in 1/200 scale and a couple of metal models in 1/400 by a German firm, Classic Ship Models --- a short-sea trader (MS Bleichen) and a German coast guard oil spill recovery vessel Newark.
Wife got me a builders' model of a Peruvian shrimp boat in 1/48 in a case for my 70th.
My doc says the hands are not going to get any better so my model building days seem to be over.
I still tune in to this site every so often for interesting tidbits about the ship modeling world.
So sorry to hear that, Jim. Thus far, I've been compensating for my own ageing eyes and hands by greatly increasing my amount of cussing! (Plus, you may notice it's taking me ever longer to finish each build...)
Seriously though, I guess it happens to all of us, sooner or later - but, Jimmy, what about taking pictures of your existing builds? Again, I'd love to post anything(s) you send me, and/or help you to post 'em directly.
Meantime, your specific mention of painting made me realize just how much I've been "automating" this operation - that is, masking and spraypainting - as an alternative to brush-work. And not with a demanding airbrush, either, but with rattle cans and (if you can believe it) even simpler ways of spraying paint.
Only the masking part demands dexterity - but here, since it's prior to any painting, it is completely forgiving; allowing you as much time - and as many do-overs - as you may need.
Jimmy, if you want to take a crack at fixing the paint job on your Hawaiian Pilot (of which I, too, have a an available demonstrator on hand), I'd be happy to take you through my best techniques - step-by-step - on it, buddy. Or on any other build, for that matter. It would be a lot of fun - and, I think, also highly likely to produce yet another new trick or two, in the process. What do you think, man? (Is your SeaBulk offshore oil services tug model already built? I'd love to see it, either way!)
Just let me know - about any of the above - and THANKS for all your sharing with us, buddy!
Meantime - and this goes for everybody out there: Never stop lurking ModelFleet!
Cheers,
-Matty
Re: OK, here we go...!
Posted by Ron Wilkinson on July 20, 2009, 20:46:57, in reply to "Re: OK, here we go...!"
My understanding is that when Revell intially made these kits they were looked at more as toys. The flat bottom was to enable kids to push them around on the floor.
Great to see you - tell "all the nice people" (i.e., lurkers) who you are, buddy! (I presume you found us through SMML...?)
Regarding your point, I have no specific info on the original intent behind these particular kits - but, from the toy-like box art originally on most, if not all of them - commonly including even the proverbial apple-cheeked 8-yr-old (boy, of course; complete with buzz-cut hair ) - I would say your view is highly plausible.
And not just pushing ships around on the floor, mind you, but on the shag carpet - the ne plus ultra living surface of the Ozzie-'N-Harriet Era.
(Meanwhile, the Renwal cutaway SSBN, depicting the most horrifically destructive weapons system ever devised, was for somewhat more mature builders - so its box portrayed a beaming fourteen-year-old (complete with short hair BrylCreamed flat to his head, ears flapping in space).)
Thanks for the welcome Matty. I did find you guys through the SMML, and have been trying to go through some of the old posts. To all out there, my name is Ron Wilkinson and I live out here in Draper, Utah. I recently got back into plastic models and currently working /modifying Revell's Hawaiian Pilot. I also do scratch built wood vessels and maritme research. On those flat bottom boats, that is what I had heard, and the person seemed pretty sure of himself. Made sense to me.
And he talks cock-sure about everything! Seriously though, I do of course concurr.
And Ron, if you've got any pics of "wood vessels" - whether sculpted in wood to depict steel/iron hulls, or plastic to depict wood (both of which types we've already featured here on ModelFleet) - or actual wood, depicting wood (is that all the different possible permutations - did I leave out welded steel, to depict wood? ) - in any case, we'd love to see 'em!