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Rich pensioners
Posted by Swiss Tony on 12/9/2024, 10:18:19
How rich, is rich? Quantify it.
Swiss
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Um on 12/9/2024, 14:55:37, in reply to "Rich pensioners"
There’s a few on the cruise I’m on. What’s the odds it’s pissing down in Corsica.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by The Outsider on 12/9/2024, 11:43:03, in reply to "Rich pensioners"
Not answering your question as such but I posted a comment below that has been deleted.
I agree that WFA should be means tested but I think that the claiming pension credit qualification is too low, especially with the short notice of the withdrawal of WFA which doesn't give a chance for those who are just above the limit to budget for the increase in energy costs and the loss of WFA.
I would suggest that the withdrawal of WFA should apply to those paying above the basic rate of tax or, alternatively, those living in houses above, say, band D for council tax. The latter is probably less easy to manipulate and also simpler to administer.
I keep hearing the argument that the extra £460 (estimated) pension more than covers the loss of WFA but that increase is to cover all living costs, not just energy costs. More importantly, it doesn't start until next April and is then spread over twelve months. Extra pension received in March 2026 is no good for energy bills this winter.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Trainspotter on 12/9/2024, 12:58:21, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Means Testing,begin the begin.
So if we want to start how about we include people claiming benefits ? Often seem better off than those working. Might give a bigger picture.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Dave Hedgehog on 12/9/2024, 12:47:08, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
The argument against doing sensible things like your suggestion is that apparently doing this sort of eligibility thing would be time consuming and costly. Which may or may not be true.
The easiest solution I've seen anywhere was just increase the state pension by £300 and forget about the separate payment. Wealthier pensioners would then be taxed on it and pay a lot of it back and those that need the money still get it.
Agree that is another sensible option and cheaper to administrate.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by The Outsider on 12/9/2024, 12:57:13, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Actually, it could cost a lot more to administer within a couple of years as the state pension with the normal increases plus the £300 (it's only £200 if you are under 80) would be higher than the personal allowance making millions of pensioners with no other income liable to tax. This would create massive workloads calculating and collecting the tax.
Where pensioners have other income sources, there is a mechanism for collecting tax through those although it doesn't always work. The problem is that there is no facility to deduct tax at source from a state pension.
Also, some people receive state pensions way above the standard amount. I have clients with state pensions of over £16000.
The big problem is where millions have a tax liability on their state pension even though it is their only source.
This should also include any annual increase in the basic state pension as well.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by The Outsider on 12/9/2024, 13:37:15, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
The Conservatives announced that the personal allowance would be raised for pensioners (similar to but not as much as the old age allowance) so that it was always at least as much as the standard state pension - this is effectively what you are suggesting.
Labour said that they would not implement this. In the long run, the costs of administering small tax liabilities for millions would outweigh the tax involved so, hopefully, they will see sense and introduce something similar before the problem arises.
Very interesting article. It doesn’t seem that Labour have ruled out increasing the threshold to cover future increases , although they haven’t committed to it either. Given the extra costs it would involve collecting the tax seems a bit of a no brainier who ever is in government.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by The Outsider on 12/9/2024, 14:11:09, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Helen Morrissey, head of retirement analysis at the investment platform Hargreaves Lansdown, said of Labour’s decision to stick with the triple lock: “Labour’s pledge to maintain the triple lock on the state pension was made weeks ago and it was made very clear it wouldn’t go down the road of turbo charging it as the Conservatives have done with its triple lock plus.
Sometimes it’s agreeing to something the other lot suggested rather than the principle. However, this would not rule out increasing the £300 WFA. I still think Labour should increase the threshold for those only on state pension and no other income. As you say, the costs out way the benefits, so not sure why they would not do it.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Just an observation on 12/9/2024, 12:18:07, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
I think you should offer your services to the Government as you have displayed more common sense in your post than all Government's collectively over many years
Simple really, they have applied a sledgehammer to crack a nut
Posted by r p mcmurphy on 12/9/2024, 13:08:07, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
OK, so based on our expert Think Tank, government policy is now universal vouchers for booze, fags and fast food. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Unlock
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Andy Cappuccino on 12/9/2024, 11:18:49, in reply to "Rich pensioners"
Rishi really suffered as a kid because he didn’t have Sky Sports. 🙂
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Homer on 12/9/2024, 11:00:23, in reply to "Rich pensioners"
Over £6000 a year income , is rich according to liebour. That's when you get help below £6k a year. Meanwhile the arseholes in parliament get £3k a year 'heating allowance' with no need for receipts ( whilst they get paid £90k a year - ie obscenely rich by their own words ) Rachel Theives even said she visited a pensioner who was freezing last year and couldn't believe the tories might drop the 'important' £300 help with heating....
Liebour doing their best never to get elected again - even the 20% who did vote for them won't admit it.....
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Dave Hedgehog on 12/9/2024, 11:42:14, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
why make stuff up when 2 seconds on google proves you're full of crap.
To qualify for pension credit you must have a weekly income below £218.15 if you're single, or £332.95 if you're in a couple.
If you're on pension credit nobody is coming for your fuel allowance.
Posted for clarity and because I do not want any elderly hatter to not apply for what they are entitled to because they've believed your bollocks.
Posted by The Queen of whataboutery on 12/9/2024, 13:16:14, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Of course I am happy. Labour = everything is fabulous Tories = everything is wrong That's how basic I really am. p.s what about Thick Lizzy, GBeebies and Farridge.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Nearly s Genius on 12/9/2024, 13:48:20, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Posted by HH on 12/9/2024, 10:56:33, in reply to "Rich pensioners"
I dunno.
But according to the IFS in 2022 pensioners as a demographic are less likely to be in poverty than many other groups and they've had lower poverty rates, after housings costs, than people of working age since 2003.
It just feels to me if they're getting a heating contribution paid universally, then so should everyone else.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Nearly s Genius on 12/9/2024, 11:00:42, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
It’s only going to the poorer ones who are eligible for Pension Credit.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by joey diconio on 12/9/2024, 10:40:28, in reply to "Rich pensioners"
Those that buy the big packs of Werthers Originals
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by TPDC on 12/9/2024, 10:34:14, in reply to "Rich pensioners"
That's a great question.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Swiss Tony on 12/9/2024, 10:39:25, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Nobody seems keen to answer it though?
Swiss
PS I’d prefer if a few could give their version as I’m not sure how I would describe it, but posters keep referring to it and the richest demographic etc.
Don't forget though that most people are idiots and don't know their arses from their elbows. Anything that requires just the smallest amount of thought and brain power they choose to ignore. Or they give a trite and over simplistic answer when most things in life are grey a d complex.
Whilst people will have different opinions as to what makes someone rich, I think it's fairly obvious that if you have savings and investments of over £1m along with owning outright a multi bedroomed property, own outright a vehicle worth over £50k with personalised plates, have a private healthcare scheme, then you don't need £300 from the government. It's frankly pathetic of people suggesting they ought to have it.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Just an observation on 12/9/2024, 12:23:47, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
I haven't seen any evidence that anyone is disagreeing with that. The issue is not those you describe or those on pension credit but a number falling within that rather broad spectrum
Agree entirely, wherever the cut off is there'll always be someone that fall into the gap just above the cut off zone. It needs to be at a high enough level so as not to cause distress. Outsider seems to have a decent criteria to work from.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by The Questioner on 12/9/2024, 10:55:39, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Agree with all that but the problem is those just outside it. If you are 70 and have pension benefits of say £20k pa then I don’t think you get it . That doesn’t seem fair as probably contributed to the system all your life …you aren’t rich just not on the breadline. I suspect we have many more in that category than the one you described above. I agree with it in principle but to make it fairer the cut off should be higher imo.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by joey diconio on 12/9/2024, 10:45:52, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
I’d assume it’s those that have
No mortgage/rent A private pension
As a minimum
Of the pensioners I know, only 1 would need the Fuel Allowance, and they will get it as they are on Pension Credit.
I think the big issue is the ones who are just above the level to get pension credit, but don’t have much else, which should be addressed.
My Dad for example is just about to head off on his 3rd holiday of the year, so whilst getting a £300 present is welcome, he doesn’t need it at all.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by joey diconio on 12/9/2024, 10:56:52, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Id have thought must of the younger generation don’t really care too much about it, unless they want to have a stick to beat the government with.
I’d much rather the means testing was better, as people will fall between the gaps, and the worst thing is some people who should be claiming Pension Credit aren’t, and are possibly unaware or it, or potentially incapable of claiming it.
It’d be better if taxes on the actual rich were increased, but you get oddballs who are piss poor who valiantly defend billionaires.
Like your Dad. My mum doesn't need it she's comfortable. The issue for me is the fact to apply for pension credit the form is 15 pages long with 240 questions. Not all elderly either have younger offspring who can fill online forms out of are able to do it themselves.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Swiss Tony on 12/9/2024, 10:59:38, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
I’d agree with all of that tbh.
Swiss
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Swiss Tony on 12/9/2024, 10:49:18, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
That’s more sensible mate. I just wonder if the younger demographic understand it that way?
Swiss
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Just an observation on 12/9/2024, 10:47:57, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Nail on head. Many do not need it, significant numbers do need it
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Nearly s Genius on 12/9/2024, 10:41:08, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
I think it’s similar to the criteria for Universal Credit.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Swiss Tony on 12/9/2024, 10:46:56, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
So anyone over 66 that isn’t receiving pension credit is rich?
As one of those people I’m not ‘rich’ but don’t need the WFA. I agree that those near the pension credit threshold should get something. Just graduate the payment rather than have a sharp cut-off.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Nearly s Genius on 12/9/2024, 11:54:56, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
A sensible idea, that no government of any hue would implement
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Just an observation on 12/9/2024, 12:26:21, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
I think the problem with that is identifying those cases, would probably cost a significant amount and would possibly not catch all eligible people
Not sure a graduation of some sort would be that expensive. The main issue is where you draw the line. I’m not a higher band taxpayer but I don’t need the WFA. Setting it at the higher tax band seems too high but at pension credit too low. Just needs some common sense. The majority agree there is room for improvement, including me, a Labour voter. Sensible debate is welcome. The thing I find idiotic is the stuff about genocide of the elderly, which is clearly nonsense.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Idiot spotter on 12/9/2024, 16:08:35, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Posted by The Outsider on 12/9/2024, 12:51:54, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
The problem is that any "cut-off point" has to be easy to measure. If not, the means testing and appeals procedures will cost more than the savings.
My other suggestion was to base it on council tax banding as the better off tend to live in higher banded houses and this is not so easy to manipulate as tax bands.
Maybe go for the council tax bands but with an opt out option which allows those who are happy not to receive it to opt out. Alternatively, when you receive it, donate it to a charity (possibly one of those that supports older people?) and Gift Aid it so that the charity gets extra.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by r p mcmurphy on 12/9/2024, 13:20:49, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Agree, but then the problem is those who are 'property rich, but cash poor'. The media will wheel out a pensioner who lives in a 6 bed house, but can't afford the heating. The government would then be accused of hitting those who worked hard for that big house, etc etc
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Nearly s Genius on 12/9/2024, 10:49:14, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Not rich, but not necessarily having to choose between eating and heating.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Just an observation on 12/9/2024, 10:48:43, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Seems to be the very blinkered assumption, yes
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Mike on 12/9/2024, 10:25:06, in reply to "Rich pensioners"
Starlin is saying if you have £1 more than you need you don't get it ..
Genoside???!!!!! That’s new. What is that? 😆. Oh it’s such fun watching you go off on one. Priceless.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Nearly s Genius on 12/9/2024, 10:34:28, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
It’s “genocide”.
And no, it’s not.
It’s making sure the allowance goes to those who really need it, and not those who don’t .
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Just an observation on 12/9/2024, 10:43:41, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
What about those that need it? These are the ones being ignored. If elderly deaths increase outside of the norm over winter the shit will really hit the fan.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Nearly s Genius on 12/9/2024, 10:46:07, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Those on Pension Credit are those who really need it.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Just an observation on 12/9/2024, 10:50:28, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
That is not being disputed. However, there are significant numbers not on pension credit who are not rich by any definition. Hence why I said need rather than really need
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Nearly s Genius on 12/9/2024, 10:53:10, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Fair enough. That’s the trouble with means testing, though; there are always going to be people just above the threshold.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Bored in Flitwick on 12/9/2024, 10:36:54, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
What about Millibandy promise to save us all £300 a year on energy cost..also meant to stop providers increases..all horsepoo
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by r p mcmurphy on 12/9/2024, 10:49:16, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
How quickly do you think new energy infrastructure gets built.
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Bored in Flitwick on 12/9/2024, 11:39:23, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Was promised to take affect straight away
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by r p mcmurphy on 12/9/2024, 11:45:14, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
Only if you're messaging from the year 2030. Up to £300 per year by 2030
Re: Rich pensioners
Posted by Ches Fordroad on 12/9/2024, 11:09:16, in reply to "Re: Rich pensioners"
As quick as the new prisons that Jenrick is demanding?
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