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    Everton 2 points deduction.

    Posted by m on 8/4/2024, 14:00:24

    N/t

      Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

      Posted by Roggie on 8/4/2024, 16:33:49, in reply to "Everton 2 points deduction. "

      It pays to cheat

        Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

        Posted by Random number generator again on 8/4/2024, 15:09:22, in reply to "Everton 2 points deduction. "

        Feels at least 2 points too light?

        What difference does 2 deductions in 1 year make, Derby albeit for separate offences got -9 for FFP once hammered out and -12 for admin oh and 3 more suspended for the FFP.

        Likewise in one of the cases a Panel said no more than 9 can be docked owing to admin (-9 for Admin).

        The Premier League should really be looking to Appeal this one especially..EFL Appeal cases that they don't like or did a few years ago.

          It's messy...

          Posted by ELH on 8/4/2024, 15:01:23, in reply to "Everton 2 points deduction. "

          Had a chance to skim through the report, but it's massive so will have missed things. However, they state early on that the decision here (i.e. 2 points) is based on what Everton have admitted, which was a £16.6m excess and is less than their last breach. The PL allege the breach is significantly higher due to a disagreement over treatment of interest costs, but the Commission has not yet considered the merits of that allegation and will reach a decision "at a later time". Who knows what that means for this season and any appeals.

          As for the 5 points, it's made up as follows:
          -3 starting point (now seems standard)
          -2 for the quantum (seems consistent to me on the basis that the smaller breach has been accepted for now)
          +2 mitigation for double jeopardy (I haven't read their reasons, but I don't see why that should be mitigation)
          +1 for other mitigation being an early admission (fair enough I guess) and exceptional loss of sponsorship due to Usamnov and his companies being sanctioned due to the Russian war (I would have sympathy if it wasn't for the murky nature of his relationship with the club in the first place)
          Nothing for exceptional cooperation like Forest gave

            Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

            Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/4/2024, 14:45:23, in reply to "Everton 2 points deduction. "

            That'll learn 'em.
            Not.

              Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

              Posted by North Beds Hatter on 8/4/2024, 14:18:38, in reply to "Everton 2 points deduction. "

              They finished 2 points above relegation last year with a worse goal difference. If they had 'co-operated' last year as Forest did this year then either of the 2 charges would have sent them down. The fact they can moan is astonishing. They should have been relegated, but instead they are in contention for relegation with an extra year's worth of Prem money in their pocket. Got away with it.

                Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                Posted by Ches Fordroad on 8/4/2024, 14:28:51, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                They're sobbing because they've had two deductions in one season.

                They don't seem quite so keen on having the first 6 points retrospectively added to last season.

                Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                Posted by Andy Cappuccino on 8/4/2024, 14:16:41, in reply to "Everton 2 points deduction. "

                And 4 points added on appeal

                  Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                  Posted by HH on 8/4/2024, 14:07:33, in reply to "Everton 2 points deduction. "

                  I can't seem to find it, but what were the losses for the 3 year period and the initial deduction versus the 3 year period for this two point deduction?

                  I imagine the decision isn't overly consistent. (Although I accept there is a cross over in that period!)

                    Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                    Posted by Ltfc39 on 8/4/2024, 14:11:00, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                    Your last sentence is absolutely right and leaves them wide open for appeals and court cases.

                    There needs to be a tariff, but the shareholders (the clubs) didn't want it.

                      Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                      Posted by HH on 8/4/2024, 14:13:42, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                      It's all a shit show. Imagine setting up a rule with no defined punishment if someone breaks it!

                      I understand Everton's perspective to some extent. Given the rolling 3-year cycle, it's inevitable that 2 years are always included. So, their argument seems to be that they've already faced punishment for those other 2 years with the initial 6-point deduction, so I guess this 2 points deduction makes sense?

                        Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                        Posted by MG on 8/4/2024, 14:18:09, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                        The only thing I know for sure here is that right now, our future looks rather brighter than theirs.

                        Suspect we might have to settle for that.

                        Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                        Posted by Brko's Bicycle on 8/4/2024, 14:13:39, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                        I suspect the original problem with a set tariff is that clubs could then clearly weigh up the cost of a specified points deduction against levels of extra spending. Becomes a false incentive rather than an unknown risk.

                        But in reality the precedent set for Everton and Forest has effectively established this scenario anyway.

                          Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                          Posted by HH on 8/4/2024, 14:14:20, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                          I imagine they'll break it again next season. So will it be another 2 point deduction?

                            Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                            Posted by Evening Poster on 8/4/2024, 14:29:56, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                            No, a third offence in the future, will mean they will be given a bonus of 4 extra points. The Premier League is a cartel, and the smaller clubs are only allowed in as cannon fodder. I want to stay up, as the odds are so stacked against clubs like us, and anyone else that attempts to abide by the rules.

                              Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                              Posted by HH on 8/4/2024, 14:14:55, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                              And if Leicester come up, high chance they will have a significant points deduction coming their way.

                        Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                        Posted by Ches Fordroad on 8/4/2024, 14:02:28, in reply to "Everton 2 points deduction. "

                        I know they're teeing this up for letting off Emirates City and Chelsea, but what's the fucking point?

                          On the other hand

                          Posted by Cuba on 8/4/2024, 14:12:33, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                          We are two points closer to Everton than we were an hour ago.

                          And we play them at home.

                          Itís very much in our hands.

                          Lest forgetting Forest, Brentford and Palace.

                          Itís now clear what we need to do letís maintain the feeling from Saturday rather than wallow in wanting more.

                            Re: On the other hand

                            Posted by m on 8/4/2024, 14:23:01, in reply to "On the other hand"

                            Or another hand altogether.

                            If we go down did we even deserve to stay up ? Two sides deducted points and 2 very poor teams below us.
                            Just devils advocate and all that.

                              Re: On the other hand

                              Posted by Music Critic on 8/4/2024, 14:48:58, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                              That's not the main point though. Yes it effects us today but, bigger picture, what incentive is there to stay within the rules if the punishment is so small?

                              We were deducted FORTY points for not staying in the rules, of course. Different competition and circumstances, yes, but is what Forest did really ten times less bad than what we did

                              Is what Everton have done 5 times less bad?

                              Answer - no

                                Re: On the other hand

                                Posted by Ches Fordroad on 8/4/2024, 15:02:18, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                Even if you disregard the penalties for entering administration, Forest and Everton combined have been docked - for recklessly exceeding spending limits - two points more than we were for paying agents from the wrong bank account. With the right to appeal.

                                And to see Everton supporters blubbing that it's two punishments in one season .....

                                  Re: On the other hand

                                  Posted by Sandgrounder on 8/4/2024, 15:05:58, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                  We could (and did) appeal the 10 points. But we were not allowed to appeal the football league deduction of 20 points

                                  Re: On the other hand

                                  Posted by m on 8/4/2024, 14:57:12, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                  Not arguing against any of that.
                                  But facts are if we canít finish above a team thatís had 8 points taken off them. We probably didnít deserve to stay up.

                                    Re: On the other hand

                                    Posted by Music Critic on 8/4/2024, 15:09:11, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                    Maybe they were able to stay up (if that's what occurs) as their cheating enabled them to sign, retain and pay players they couldn't afford (over many seasons) and, so, breaking the rules enabled them to build a squad 10 or 12 poi to better than ours? That they couldn't have done without cheating. Because Luton stayed within them, they couldn't, and, so, had a weaker squad. That's the point. The reason we might not be good enough is we didn't cheat when others did and the punishment for cheating is so soft

                                      Re: On the other hand

                                      Posted by Ches Fordroad on 8/4/2024, 15:20:52, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                      Pretty sure if Forest had stuck to the limits they wouldn't be able to afford Wood, who's just about their only goal scorer.

                                      Or if they had him, they wouldn't be able to have Gibbs-White. Or Hudson-Odoi. Or the goalkeeper to replace the clown they had before.

                                        Re: On the other hand

                                        Posted by m on 8/4/2024, 15:59:18, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                        The open goal he missed from 2 yards out yesterday could send them down !!

                                          Re: On the other hand

                                          Posted by Ches Fordroad on 8/4/2024, 16:07:49, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                          They'll probably give them a couple of their deducted points back because of that

                                          Re: On the other hand

                                          Posted by Music Critic on 8/4/2024, 15:39:40, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                          Exactly

                                          If we don't stay up it won't necessarily be due to our failings but the cheating of others

                                            Re: On the other hand

                                            Posted by Ches Fordroad on 8/4/2024, 15:42:16, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                            It'll certainly have played a big part if Forest stay up instead of us.

                                            Everton shouldn't even be in this league this season.

                                          Re: On the other hand

                                          Posted by Music Critic on 8/4/2024, 15:10:32, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                          *10 or 12 points better

                                      Re: On the other hand

                                      Posted by Cuba on 8/4/2024, 14:29:49, in reply to "Re: On the other hand"

                                      Yes, fair point and I agree.

                                      We wonít have a better chance of staying up over the final five games now.

                                      If we donít manage it then it wonít be down to FFP.

                                      Re: On the other hand

                                      Posted by mmmm on 8/4/2024, 14:16:47, in reply to "On the other hand"

                                      Exactly. I was expecting nothing so 2 points closer is huge at this point. They were also rubbish against Burnley so we have two / three teams in the mix with us. Good news.

                                      Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                      Posted by HH on 8/4/2024, 14:08:40, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                      They're changing the rules so the big boys can only pay a fine.

                                        Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                        Posted by MG on 8/4/2024, 14:06:52, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                        They will probably get four back on appeal as long as they cry hard enough.

                                        The whole thing is a farce.

                                          Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                          Posted by Hatsworth on 8/4/2024, 14:15:00, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                          Iíve just been reading their response. So the reason has now moved - now itís apparently the war in Ukraine that meant they spunked the best part of 200m on Michael Keane, Alex iwobi, yerri Mina, onana, Godfrey and gbamin, and couldnít sell Pickford or Calvert lewin.

                                          Wasnít covid after all - it was all putins fault.

                                          They have thanked them though. 1 point up on punishment weekend isnít half bad.

                                            Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                            Posted by MG on 8/4/2024, 14:19:18, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                            I see, so all the other clubs were unaffected by Ukraine then? Makes sense.

                                              Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                              Posted by Peter Griffin on 8/4/2024, 15:09:42, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                              One of their biggest sponsors was Russian and wasnít allowed to put in £200m investment alled jelly

                                          Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                          Posted by Hatsworth on 8/4/2024, 14:06:20, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                          Agree. There is no other sport in the world that I can think of where cheating doesnít result in disqualification. This is pathetic.

                                            Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                            Posted by F.I. on 8/4/2024, 14:05:45, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                            just massively overspend and a very good chance of staying up with just a small points duction.
                                            another £100mil plus next season, thank you very much.

                                              Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                              Posted by Beechwoodhatter on 8/4/2024, 14:19:16, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                              Apparently there could be another breach which they are looking into as well

                                                Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                                Posted by Random number generator again on 8/4/2024, 15:13:22, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                                If it's "just" another Upper Loss limit breach that would be next season.

                                                If it is some other breach on top, past not properly disclosed, Aggravating Factor then maybe.

                                                  Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                                  Posted by HuN on 8/4/2024, 15:28:29, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                                  I think it's something to do with the finances situation regarding the new ground, with both Everton and the EPL having different opinions on how it affects FFP


                                                  . . . but nothing will happen anyway.

                                                    Re: Everton 2 points deduction.

                                                    Posted by Random number generator again on 8/4/2024, 16:07:14, in reply to "Re: Everton 2 points deduction. "

                                                    You are correct. Just checked..it is to do with the capitalisation of Interest, thst should really be within this season.

                                                    If the Interest capitalisation is ruled incorrect that would increase the overspend which surely means more points..should very much fall in this season.

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