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    Appeal

    Posted by Neil on 27/11/2023, 16:20:46

    Why were we denied an appeal after our points deduction?

      Re: Appeal

      Posted by MG on 27/11/2023, 16:28:15, in reply to "Appeal"

      We did get a chance to appeal the ten point FA deduction, which by all accounts was a complete sham.

      The FL made it a condition of getting our golden share back that we would not appeal their 20 point deduction I think. It was apparently all a totally unanimous decision despite two of the panel since suggesting that might not have been the case.

        Re: Appeal

        Posted by HH on 27/11/2023, 16:34:22, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

        TBH, I think the -20 was fair considering it was our third admin in 10 years and the penalty for one admin was a 15 point deduction.

        The FA 10 point deduction was unfathomable.

          Re: Appeal

          Posted by Music Critic on 27/11/2023, 16:50:03, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

          The football league's penalty did have, at least, some precedent behind it. But what was shit about it all was I think 2020 offered to pay HMRC virtually all the money it was owed after Jayten ran up that massive tax bill. But HMRC dug their heels in for whatever reason. The CVA wasn't agreed and that was that. Yet, recently, they agreed to accept Derby's offer of about 25 pence in the pound. In 2008, it was just a perfect shitstorm for us that resulted in us being hit harder than anybody else. It would be us

          I thought, too, that the League could have treated the Gurney admin as a bit of a special case and let us off of 3 of the 20. Not that -27 would have made a jot of difference. But if the FA didn't get involved, -17 would have been retrievable

          As you say, the FA waded in with that extra -10 when a) reps of the club self-reported, b) we had new owners, who had nothing to do with any of that stuff and c) we didn't get any competitive advantage from it. That was baffling and spiteful. I'll always be convinced that there was some kind of stitch up involving MK franchise, Mawhinney and senior FA reps to kill us and help pave the way for Winkelman and that bastard-club up the M1. If true, I really hope evidence emerges one day

            Re: Appeal

            Posted by Ches Fordroad on 27/11/2023, 18:30:14, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

            100% with you there - I'm pretty certain pervy Pete was pulling the strings, the evidence has probably gone the same way as the TV news footage of their celebrations of the 2018 World Cup bid

              Re: Appeal

              Posted by MG on 27/11/2023, 17:14:42, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

              And it's funny that in our case the "new owners", "it only punishes the fans" etc were specifically discounted.

              In cases like West Ham's - far, far worse transgressions by far - they were specifically included as mitigating factors. Albeit that's the Premier League, not the FA, well not exactly anyway.

              Re: Appeal

              Posted by MG on 27/11/2023, 16:40:27, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

              The penalty for one admin was 10 points wasn't it?

              It was certainly more reasonable than the 10 points from the FA but given that the FL had approved Gurney as one of those owners they were blatantly culpable for that admin which was close to a technicality.

              But the deduction was only part of it, the delays to hearing the case were hugely detrimental as it cost us a lot in fees and we couldn't sign players until the day before the season iirc. That compounded the issues significantly.

                Re: Appeal

                Posted by Old Black&White on 27/11/2023, 17:49:39, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                Sweet always said he had no beef with the -20, but that other -10 was a mere technicality, and far worse has occurred since by many other clubs.

                Never ever forgive and forget.

                But it was the catalyst that started the rise to where we are now,

                ( would we be the same club, if we had stayed up that year????)

                  Re: Appeal

                  Posted by MG on 27/11/2023, 18:35:27, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                  All true, the EFL inadvertantly set us onto the path to become something much stronger than we were before

                  Re: Appeal

                  Posted by HH on 27/11/2023, 17:37:49, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                  Yeah, you're right. It was 10 for a single admin. Rotherham and B'muff were deducted 15 for their second admin.

                    Re: Appeal

                    Posted by ELH on 27/11/2023, 17:45:06, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                    I think it was 10 for admin, but 15 separately for exiting without a CVA. Rotherham and Bournemouth were deducted 17 because it was their 2nd time and is 20 because it was our third.

                    Leeds were supposed the precedent for the 15 deduction for no CVA. But that was quite a different situation to us (or Bournemouth or Rotherham) as Bates used the Leeds admin to write off their debts but retained ownership. I never felt it should have been the precedent, but seems to have stuck now.

                    Re: Appeal

                    Posted by Music Critic on 27/11/2023, 16:56:36, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                    Yes, they definitely delayed things so they could hammer us as a League 2 club instead of a League 1 club when it looked like we were doomed from January that year anyway

                    I'm still convinced that some forces were out to destroy us in 2008 and I always will be

                      Re: Appeal

                      Posted by R27 on 27/11/2023, 21:47:38, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                      I think it all goes back to the plastic pitch and the banning of away fans.

                      The FL hated that and had been biding their time waiting for the opportunity to hammer us into the ground.

                      Our third admin was the opportunity they had been gleefully waiting for and they grabbed it with both hands.

                        Re: Appeal

                        Posted by MG on 27/11/2023, 17:12:38, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                        It's hard not to think that to be honest.

                        Still, so far we couldn't have stuck a much bigger two fingers up at them

                    Re: Appeal

                    Posted by RADSB on 27/11/2023, 16:33:25, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                    Yes the 10 point appeal was a sham. On the 20 points, there was a threat to withdraw our golden share (right to be in the EFL) if we persisted with an appeal/legal action IIRC. I also recall reps from other clubs on the panel saying that they hadn't read the papers that LTFC submitted. So all pre-planned and pre-determined.
                    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/jul/15/lutontown.leaguetwofootball

                      Re: Appeal

                      Posted by HuN on 27/11/2023, 17:48:22, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                      Also linked on that page is this:

                      https://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/apr/02/southampton-saints-administration-championship-relegation

                        Re: Appeal

                        Posted by Nearly a Genius on 27/11/2023, 17:51:14, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                        Yes, I remember that injustice

                        Re: Appeal

                        Posted by MG on 27/11/2023, 17:11:44, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                        Yes and reading what the Barnet and Tranmere reps had to say they were pretty much railroaded into signing it off. We never stood a chance.

                          Re: Appeal

                          Posted by Caught Jester on 27/11/2023, 16:36:11, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                          Yep. They were so confident in their judgement that they had to insert THAT clause.

                          You know what? It still stinks.

                            Re: Appeal

                            Posted by Bicester Hat on 28/11/2023, 10:16:10, in reply to "Re: Appeal"

                            What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger…
                            The stronger the team the stronger the team…

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