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    I'll be honest (Everton etc)

    Posted by Brko's Bicycle on 27/11/2023, 15:17:58

    I don't really understand why there are profit and sustainability rules, financial fair play etc.

    Football is a free market capitalist mess - so why are there theoretical limits to how much can be invested? If a club gets itself in a financial mess and goes bust, then that's their own prerogative and mismanagement.

    If you don't want states like UAE or Saudi to own Man City and Newcastle then good, I can support a rule like that. But once they do own them, why are there limits on how much funding they can put in? There's clearly no intention to create a level playing field anyway, so why pretend?


      Cheers Outlaws, I get it now

      Posted by Brko's Bicycle on 27/11/2023, 16:16:45, in reply to "I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

      Being a bit dim earlier. Can see now that the intention is to preserve a sustainable business for the next owner, should the current custodians eff off.

      I think the new language around "profit and sustainability" makes this clearer actually. The older rules about "financial fair play" I think were the source of my confusion and are how it seems to be spoken about generally - that this is about "fairness" and not allowing clubs to "spend too much".

      A lot of these rules seem to have stemmed from Arsene Wenger essentially moaning that Chelsea had a bigger transfer budget than Arsenal,and I think that framing does seem to dominate.

      But thanks to the Outlaws brain trust I can see now that this is more about avoiding situations where clubs have a load of players on big contracts etc without the fundamental infrastructure to sustain that if the sugar daddy disappears overnight.

        Re: Cheers Outlaws, I get it now

        Posted by HH on 27/11/2023, 16:27:40, in reply to "Cheers Outlaws, I get it now"

        This probably also sounds mad considering the context of the sport today but I also think some sort of FFP protects whatever integrity is left in the game.

        IMO, there is nothing unique or special about what Chelsea, City or Newcastle have done. It's literally like winning the lottery, what has happened there would have happened had their owners bought any other club, be it Accrington Stanley or Man City and ploughed billions in.

        It just makes our story and the contrast with what our owners have achieved all the more special.

        City's owners and Chelsea have spent around 3bn since they've taken over. On our turnover last season, that would cover us for the next 176 years!

          Re: Cheers Outlaws, I get it now

          Posted by Brko's Bicycle on 27/11/2023, 16:58:05, in reply to "Re: Cheers Outlaws, I get it now"

          I agree with that in principle, but the rules would have to be completely different to what they are. Something much more like American central contracts and draft system, or a maximum wage. FFP/PS seem to be intended to create the impression of this but don't do anything like it.

        Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc)

        Posted by Music Critic on 27/11/2023, 15:31:53, in reply to "I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

        Hypothetical situation:

        Let's say Luton are sold by some owners who 2020 have sold to. Those new owners come in, do the PR about how they want to take the club to the next level, blah, blah, blah

        They recklessly throw money about, maybe loading dangerous debt onto the club. The fans just see loads of famous footballers come in and cheer it all on.

        But, after a time, this particular owner(s) gets fed up with losing money and either calls in that debt or the losses are so big no one (sensible) wants to come in to buy us. Then our reckless owner stops funding us and we go into admin

        As The Questioner says, just like Watson-Challis

        Your point would be fine if owners were obliged to keep on writing the cheques and covering the massive losses that he/she/they has committed the club to until a sale is secured. But, most of the time, they don't. Chelsea was a bit of exception and that was funded by filthy money.

        Maybe legally unlimiting football clubs as businesses and loading all liability on directors/owners might be a way round it?

          Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc)

          Posted by Ches Fordroad on 27/11/2023, 15:27:37, in reply to "I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

          It's not perfect but I'd far rather have something in place to at least try and make football something other than an owner's fat wallet contest than nothing at all

            Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc)

            Posted by Vladimir Luton on 27/11/2023, 15:25:09, in reply to "I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

            Because the club's are community assets. If a speculative owner comes in trying to get a team into Europe/PL and borrows a load of money against club assets. If the club fails to reach that objective and goes belly up then the community suffers. Jobs are lost, businesses suffer etc.
            Some simple rules are put in place to stop clubs spending more than they can afford for the safeguarding of the game. If you break them you pay the penalty.

              Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc)

              Posted by Brko's Bicycle on 27/11/2023, 15:27:08, in reply to "Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

              I get that in theory, but the owners of City and Newcastle aren't borrowing against community assets. They have unlimited petrodollars they want to pour in, and for some reason have to disguise it as shirt sponsorships and dodgy accounting

                Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc)

                Posted by Floater on 27/11/2023, 15:47:11, in reply to "Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

                I like Vladimir's answer but, setting aside the loss of a community asset, there is an economic reason: Free market capitalism ends in monopoly power held by a few companies.

                For example, in late 19th century USA when Rockefeller cornered the oil and railroad market. He would selectively sell at a loss to put other firms out of business or charge his competitors excessive rail transportation fees to reduce their margins. In response, the US government introduced regulation to break up Rockefeller's oil interests and stop cartels forming, and introduced a minimum wage to stop worker exploitation.

                  Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc)

                  Posted by StanBaker on 27/11/2023, 15:43:44, in reply to "Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

                  I think it's because when football clubs go into administration the main creditors (after unpaid tax) are players and other clubs. FA etc. couldn't give a fvck about local businesses. They're trying to protect their own.

                  Any big investor coming in can just as easily walk away,leaving massive contracts to be honoured ?

                Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc)

                Posted by HuN on 27/11/2023, 15:24:49, in reply to "I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

                Imagine Accrington Stanley being bought by UAE and finding they suddenly have 800 million to spend

                  Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc)

                  Posted by lhat on 27/11/2023, 16:30:00, in reply to "Re: I'll be honest (Everton etc) "

                  800 million in to Accrington Stanley for players? They could rebuild the whole town with that!

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