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    Jones vs Jones

    Posted by Var treking across the univers on 24/1/2023, 22:34:50

    So the first meeting of our ex-Jones management team saw victory for the team with the greater resources (sounds familiar Graeme).

    The underdog Nathan, certainly 2nd half punched above weight and bar Var coulda got a draw with chances created (accepted Joelintons 1st half goal might have stood).

    The govening bodies still havent worked out how to use Var.

    Back the referee unless clear and obvious... 1st half ruled out by ref (no overule), 2nd half given then disallowed (overuled). It looks like Burn, Armstrongs arm, Burn then og for equalisor so should stand (like Boro vs Utd last season).

    We have so many examples Rashford vs city or knees vs arms for offside. Lets use chips in back of neck/shirt (they already use for gps recording) so its the same body part used at all times. Advantage likely because of direction of running will be with attacker, but if they are offside it will show up.

      Re: Jones vs Jones

      Posted by Kurious Oranj on 25/1/2023, 7:43:26, in reply to "Jones vs Jones"

      VAR was brought in to improve consistency of decision making and has failed at every level.

      It is generally a hindrance over an improvement and in my view detracts from the beautiful game.

      The FA of course will bend it to fit rather than acknowledge its shit and get rid of it.

        Re: Jones vs Jones

        Posted by Philthehatter on 25/1/2023, 8:20:27, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

        Agree, just about every goal goes to VAR now, I can't stand it, not how the game should be.

        Re: Jones vs Jones

        Posted by Realistic on 24/1/2023, 23:01:26, in reply to "Jones vs Jones"

        The whole outrage to VAR is a bit baffling to me.

        There are two plausible positions to take:
        1) Keep it, and use it wherever you can to get the right decision
        2) Ditch it completely, and rely on humans on the pitch to make decisions.

        But actively arguing for something in-between the two completely flies in the face of common sense.

        The amount of bleating about VAR overruling offside goals because they were only a fraction offside makes so sense. What is 'clear and obvious'? How many yards offside to you have to be for it to be clear? And how do you decide if they are within the tolerance or not?

        Just use the damn thing for everything or don't use it at all. If you don't like the fact that refs make mistakes than can cost you, then you have only one option which is full-on VAR.

          Re: Jones vs Jones

          Posted by Mahatma Gander on 25/1/2023, 10:01:18, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

          Firstly on the offside, I understood that the tech isn't actually accurate to the levels they are trying to use it. If a toe is in an offside position so what? It's too close to be chalking goals out, the player obviously isn't gaining any great advantage by being 2mm further forward is he?

          VAR is genuinely shit and lots of mistakes are still being made so it's degrading the game to no great benefit. I'm firmly in the ditch it camp.

            Re: Jones vs Jones

            Posted by Music Critic on 24/1/2023, 23:18:34, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

            You're asking the wrong questions, although I agree, generally, with what you're saying

            The point of going to a game of football is to celebrate goals amongst like-minded individuals and enjoy that primeval 'moment' of joy in that like-minded crowd. Take the 'moment' of celebration away and you take away a huge part of being a spectator/fan

            If you are ruining the 'moment', then what is the fukking point of it all? If the rules are now causing hesitation to celebration (and they are), then fukk it all

            The 2 VAR calls tonight were probably right but we lost a play-off final to an offside goal in 2012 and, even bearing that in mind, I still say fukk VAR

            Players make mistakes, managers make mistakes, let refs make mistakes. The human error element of football is what contributes to making it the sport that it is. With VAR, we're seeking perfection in an imperfect world... and VAR calls are often wrong anyway. With VAR, we may as well go and watch Rugby League or NFL where everything is referred and there is hardly any celebrates in the event of a try/touchdown/etc. Bollocks to that

              Re: Jones vs Jones

              Posted by Three Wheels On My Wagon on 25/1/2023, 8:52:59, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

              "If the rules are causing hesitation...etc etc."

              If, even with VAR, you can't decide what happened or whether what did happen was an offence, then the rules are definitely the root of the problem.



                Re: Jones vs Jones

                Posted by Realistic on 25/1/2023, 0:48:32, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                I'm not saying I disagree with that at all.

                But for those who don't like it when big calls go against us, like the York game you mention, and think that you can't rely on a human, then VAR is the only other option and you can't start getting silly about what is close enough to be overruled, etc.

                But I do agree with what you say - I'm in the no VAR camp.

                  Re: Jones vs Jones

                  Posted by Music Critic on 25/1/2023, 8:47:05, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                  Yep, agreed

                  All in with VAR or nothing - and being all in means you have to accept the call when it's deemed there is a forward's toe nail being offside

                  I'd prefer nothing, of course

                    Re: Jones vs Jones

                    Posted by Mahatma Gander on 25/1/2023, 10:03:22, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                    I don't actually think that "all-in" means you have to accept the toe-nail offside decisions. You simply change the tolerance to say there has to be x amount of space between the lines before it gets called offside.

                      Re: Jones vs Jones

                      Posted by Realistic on 25/1/2023, 12:12:04, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                      And how exactly do you judge whether there was x amount of space between them? Was it x + 1cm, or x - 1cm?

                      You see where this is going right?

                        Re: Jones vs Jones

                        Posted by Mahatma Gander on 25/1/2023, 13:14:09, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                        No, I don't.

                        The system is currently being asked to resolve distances that it isn't actually capable of apparently.

                        So, I think some increase is required. And I also think that a standard "daylight" distance can easily be calibrated into the calculations, that shouldn't be at all hard.

                        Re: Jones vs Jones

                        Posted by Music Critic on 25/1/2023, 10:14:13, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                        The rules need to change if VAR is to stay

                        Measure it on, say, shoulders like they do for photo finishes in athletics. If the head, a foot or a leg is offside but the shoulders ain't, then it's onside. Or maybe the hips?

                        Or just get rid of VAR altogether, which is my preference

                          Re: Jones vs Jones

                          Posted by Mahatma Gander on 25/1/2023, 10:34:14, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                          We share the preference, that's for damn sure!

                          But I think most of the opposition comes from match-going fans and most of the money comes from TV audiences so it is likely to stay.

                          I just think offside should mean something more than a fractional distance. You should only be pulling players back where there is little doubt about it. Goals and attacking football are the lifeblood of the game so give the attackers the benefit of the doubt.

                          The rules will be the same for both teams . . . except for United at home to City which was a situation to confound everyone I think.

                            Re: Jones vs Jones

                            Posted by Music Critic on 25/1/2023, 10:47:00, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                            Yeah, agree with all that. Unfortunately, it is here to stay

                            You're spot on with the benefit of the doubt thing. That is exactly what is not happening at the moment and the VAR officials almost seem desperate to find a reason to disallow goals

                            The Arsenal-Man Utd game the other day was excellent but the celebration for the winner was cut short and ruined. It just destroys 'the moment' - I know I labour that point but it is a really important one for me

                            Imagine if VAR was about in 1988 and they wanted to check, for example, that Wilson didn't handle the ball for that M Stein didn't foul that donkey Gus Caesar for the goal that made it 2-2. It would have still been awarded, eventually, but the moment would have been hugely diluted

                              Re: Jones vs Jones

                              Posted by Mahatma Gander on 25/1/2023, 10:56:39, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                              Yes, totally agree, staring at a screen saying "VAR Checking goal" for five minutes while they pontificated would not be in the spirit of that wonderful commentary at the end "And Luton are ahead, in the very last minute". More, "well it looks like Luton have scored the winner but we're not sure yet, hang on for a bit".

                              I've always been frustrated by the "football is a business" sentiment. While it's undoubtedly true that there is a business based on football, that seems to justify overlooking the fact that it's a game, a sport, an entertainment first and if we lose that then what's the point of it all?

                          Re: Jones vs Jones

                          Posted by Nearly a Genius on 25/1/2023, 10:12:15, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                          Agreed. Especially if it's an elbow or the welt on a boot.

                  Re: Jones vs Jones

                  Posted by Ref on 24/1/2023, 22:41:58, in reply to "Jones vs Jones"

                  Both goals touched the arm or hand, great calls by VAR.

                    Re: Jones vs Jones

                    Posted by K on 24/1/2023, 22:39:33, in reply to "Jones vs Jones"

                    Offside doesn't work on the position of a player's back.

                      Re: Jones vs Jones

                      Posted by Var treking across the univers on 24/1/2023, 22:48:52, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                      Accept that, but clear and obvious errors (the idea behind introducing var) when comparing stride patterns vs shoulder location isnt the same either.

                      If the rules (point of measurement) are the same for both teams (used to be clear daylight as terminology) at least might be consistent.

                      Do accept handball vs offside are different scenarios, but the seems to be different interpretations as a result.

                        Re: Jones vs Jones

                        Posted by Ref on 24/1/2023, 22:56:28, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                        VAR can be used for 1, clear and obvious errors and 2, serious missed incidents.
                        Many like yourself only quote clear and obvious.

                          Re: Jones vs Jones

                          Posted by The Outsider on 24/1/2023, 23:10:15, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                          I still go back to the cricket/tennis idea where each captain has one review available per half (or per game) - they have to state what the grounds for appeal are e.g. Smith was offside. If Smith was onside but Jones was offside or Smith was onside but Smith handled it the appeal fails. If you are proved right, you keep the review, if wrong you lose it.

                            Re: Jones vs Jones

                            Posted by Nick NLPBH on 24/1/2023, 23:29:15, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                            That is my preference as well. With the proviso the referee can choose to review an incident.

                            We have somethign way in between - world cup demonstarted it clearly. Nah that isnt a goal as a toenail was offside in the build up, nah that is as the foudl was 30.5 seconds before the goal.Andalsoon that basis a foul outside the area doesnt get reviewed. A brush of a hand inside does.Clear and obvious has gone by the wayside.

                              Re: Jones vs Jones

                              Posted by Ref on 24/1/2023, 23:27:58, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                              In both of those sports dont you have more than one review/challenge?
                              I don't particularly like VAR but usually the correct decision is reached.

                              How it can take so long over obvious decisions is puzzling and does the system no favours.

                              Occasionally it does fall down when the VAR officials inexplicably make a mistake.
                              I think if I had the choice I would scrap it and go back to refereeing mistakes being part and parcel of the game.

                                Re: Jones vs Jones

                                Posted by The Outsider on 24/1/2023, 23:42:44, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                Again, as I have said before, there should be a time limit of, say, 30 seconds. If VAR can't decide in 30 seconds it isn't a clear and obvious error so the referee's decision stands.

                                  Re: Jones vs Jones

                                  Posted by Music Critic on 24/1/2023, 23:33:09, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                  Occasionally it does fall down when the VAR officials inexplicably make a mistake

                                  Occasionally? You're joking ain't ya?

                                  I think if I had the choice I would scrap it and go back to refereeing mistakes being part and parcel of the game.

                                  Agreed

                                    Re: Jones vs Jones

                                    Posted by Ref on 24/1/2023, 23:44:55, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                    No not joking, the vast majority of VAR decisions are correct to the letter of the law. Some decisions are not understood because so called expert football pundits and fans are not up to speed with the laws.
                                    Some decisions are still being called wrong, the laws are a bit of a minefield and the seasonal change to those laws doesn't help, handball is a perfect example, making your body bigger, unnatural position, where the shirt sleeve starts and so on, it changes every season.
                                    VAR has got more right than wrong and probably made it a fairer competition, however I would still scrap it.

                                      Re: Jones vs Jones

                                      Posted by Music Critic on 24/1/2023, 23:49:59, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                      VAR has got more right than wrong and probably made it a fairer competition...

                                      Yet it still hasn't taken controversy out of the game... which was the whole fukking point of introducing it in the first place. So, in order to NOT solve a problem, it is ruining the whole experience for fans and fukks around with people's emotions

                                      ...however I would still scrap it

                                      Absolutely agree

                                        Re: Jones vs Jones

                                        Posted by Ref on 24/1/2023, 23:56:17, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                        Unfortunately the game is no longer about people's emotions at the top level it's about money and making more money. Controversy was what the game thrived on in pubs and clubs after matches. Yesterdays dream.

                                          Re: Jones vs Jones

                                          Posted by Music Critic on 25/1/2023, 0:03:45, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                          So, we agree then

                                          And whatever the motives are VAR is still too often wrong. So, money being the motivator or not, it's still leaving managers, clubs, fans and pundits hard done by, which goes against the point of the whole pile of shite being introduced

                                          That's good in some ways as those groups of people were always crying about introducing technology. Well, now they have it and it's still fukking people over and still making people bleat and blub.

                                          But, big picture-wise, it's still producing the same result as ever - i.e. the better/richer teams and clubs win stuff and the lesser teams do not. Maybe redistributing some wealth in the game will make things a bit less inevitable* but they won't agree to that






                                          *although Everton have spent shit loads and are still utterly shite

                                            Re: Jones vs Jones

                                            Posted by Ref on 25/1/2023, 0:13:15, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                            But we won't agree on VAR being regularly wrong, it's regularly right.
                                            There have been several apologies to clubs for wrong calls but weigh that against the amount of correct calls each week including those where a ref is correct and no overule takes place.

                                            Its still humans making decisions and no one is infailable.

                                            Bedtime.

                                              Re: Jones vs Jones

                                              Posted by Music Critic on 25/1/2023, 0:23:57, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                              No, we won't. Because although it's right a lot of the time, it's also wrong a lot of the time. In fact, too often to make it a worthwhile exercise. Because, guess what... it's about human interpretation, too, just like the on-field officials. And that interpretation is occasionally/often/sometimes/regularly wrong. Or at least highly debateable

                                              I wonder how much more right it is than previously when refs weren't relying on it as a back up? I've moaned about refs down the years but, generally, they got most things correct. And the better teams usually won games and the better teams always won leagues, cups, etc. The cliche of it "all levelling out over a season (and even within a game)" was correct more often than not

                                              Anyway, you're missing the whole point - as I've said previously on this thread, if it ruins the whole 'moment' we go to games for then fukk it. If it ruins that, then what is the point of it all? Just so we can say Harry Kane's toe nail was offside after he's belted in a 25-yard scorcher?

                                                Re: Jones vs Jones

                                                Posted by FACT on 25/1/2023, 7:16:01, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                                Sky sports report 22/12/22.Copy and Paste.


                                                Premier League: VAR has made six incorrect interventions this season with 42 deemed correct
                                                There have been 48 VAR interventions during current Premier League season, with 42 correct and six deemed incorrect; Gabriel Martinelli's disallowed opener by VAR at United in September reportedly one of the errors; PL also wants to take part in a temporary concussion substitutions trial.

                                                It's all on the Internet thingy.

                                                  Re: Jones vs Jones

                                                  Posted by Music Critic on 25/1/2023, 8:41:53, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                                  A success rate that most half-decent refs would have had before VAR I'd have thought

                                                  There's this myth that there were shit loads of really poor decisions in the game pre-VAR. But there really wasn't THAT many (of course there were some, inc our aforementioned 2012 play-off final) but it was Sky, the Beeb, other journalists plus TV pundits that made it seem like it was a torrent of shite, crucial bad decisions. And also swayed public opinion and the opinion on football's lawmakers and authorities that it was needed

                                                  Now, goal line tech is brilliant. Instant decision, no pissing about, no ruining celebrations

                                                  Since we’re here

                                                  Posted by Looking In on 25/1/2023, 0:31:30, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                                  and there’s some very valid points being raised here - I’m not entirely convinced that the Wigan goal that was chalked off on Saturday was offside - though I’ve only seen it from one angle.

                                                  As an aside there’s a pretty good chance I’ll be at the game on Saturday. Are you going and where might I find you for a beer pre-match?

                                                    Re: Since we’re here

                                                    Posted by Music Critic on 25/1/2023, 8:29:43, in reply to "Since we’re here"

                                                    I thought the Wigan goal should have stood too. But if they were good enough they would have found a way back into the game despite that error. To be fair to Wigan, they haven't been bleating about it - so maybe it was offside

                                                    No, won't be there Saturday - long story but a mate's Dad (who I've known since I was a kid) had a serious health scare last year but recovered. It's the old boy's birthday on Saturday and I'm popping along to a little do his family is throwing through the day

                                                    Stoke will be my next outing if you're about

                                    Re: Jones vs Jones

                                    Posted by Music Critic on 24/1/2023, 23:25:08, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                    I totally agree except, even if an appeal is correct, you don't keep the review. It'll make captains think very carefully before appealing

                                    In the event of a 96th minute winner/equaliser going in, I know there will always be an appeal for something - if a captain has not used their appeal previously - that will ruin the celebration but that will be a pretty rare occurrence

                                      Re: Jones vs Jones

                                      Posted by The Outsider on 24/1/2023, 23:39:14, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                      I actually started saying that in my post above and then deleted it. The need for specific grounds for review reduces the impact of that.

                                        Re: Jones vs Jones

                                        Posted by ginelli on 25/1/2023, 9:44:32, in reply to "Re: Jones vs Jones"

                                        Why not use the GPS device that every footballer now has strapped to his back as a marker of who is offside and who isn't? It does away with a toenail being offside and other grey areas, and gives a standardised decision which can be communicated, I would have thought, very quickly to the referee. That along with goal-line technology su su sequently wraps up some of the most contentious areas of professional football. With those issues covered, we could then turn the technology to dealing with other issues like off the ball incidents and, where imo it is really needed, in stamping out diving, simulating and feigning injury which are all a blight on the the game.

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