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    Vaccine Passport Scheme…

    Posted by The Outsider on 12/9/2021, 9:50:51

    …for night clubs and large events not going ahead.

      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

      Posted by Peter Griffin on 12/9/2021, 10:23:14, in reply to "Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

      Went to a concert on Friday night, had to prove I was double jabbed, which I did. Got into the venue and my mate called me (who I had seen on Wednesday) to say he has got COVID. I could have spread it to all those I came into contact with, luckily I tested when I got home and was negative.

      Moral of story COVID passports wouldn’t stop/control anything as double jabbed people can still have and spread Covid.

        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

        Posted by since 63 on 12/9/2021, 12:10:57, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

        i am isolating at the moment with symptoms of covid, the thing is i tested negative with 2 tests last week at home i made an appointment with the walk-in on Brewers hill road and tested positive. i am now laid up in our spare bedroom until next Sunday. and i miss the swansea game. I am double jabbed.

          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

          Posted by Bruno on 12/9/2021, 10:52:42, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

          Any fit birds there, mate?

            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

            Posted by Andy Cappucino on 12/9/2021, 10:48:39, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

            If double jabbing doesn't stop the spread of Covid shouldn't you have left the venue after your mate's call?

              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

              Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 10:33:23, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

              Did you wear a mask?
              That would have restricted you from spreading the virus.

                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 10:49:45, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                No, it wouldnt to any meaningful degree

                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                  Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 11:43:03, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                  Yes it would.

                  Accept that you're wrong for once.

                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                    Posted by Hat66 on 12/9/2021, 13:44:15, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                      Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 11:53:36, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                      I don't know why you continue to peddle this anti science misinformation.

                      We've been through this plenty of times.

                      That study you linked to the other day has already been widely debunked.


                      All evidence pre 2020 showed masks had 0 impact. There are 0 quality studies showing the opposite to any meangiful degree since. Just because three talking head on the TV says something that doesnt make it true.

                      This is what it says on the box...
                      https://mobile.twitter.com/ZubyMusic/status/1436090357087883265/photo/2

                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                        Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 12:12:05, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                        Pre-2020, all medical staff, including dentists, wore masks.
                        Did they do so for fun?

                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                        Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 12:00:04, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                        Does it?

                        You're citing "Zuby" as a source now?

                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                          Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 12:02:23, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                          Not on boxes now, no. But early last year it did

                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                            Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 12:27:42, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                            Well that is easy to suggest, a bit harder to prove.

                            So why have medical professionals the world over worn them?

                            So why have many governments for many years recommended them for tackling viruses?

                            Could it really be that the hugely influential mask industry has that much weight with policy makers?

                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                              Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 12:38:43, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                              I've provided pictures.

                              Just to be clear, you dont seriously believe the reason surgeons and dentists have worn masks is to stop respiratory viruses?

                              They haven't. Dont you remember at the start of this pandemic the advise was not to wear masks as they had no benefit and were needed in hospitals.
                              There are records of medical advisors etc saying as much.

                              I'm not going to spend my sunday going over old ground with you and NaG, especially as I suspect at best youre both being deliberately obtuse.

                              Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                Posted by jimmyp on 12/9/2021, 16:14:05, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                Why are they needed in Hospitals if they don't do anything?

                                Cheers, Jim

                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                  Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 16:54:39, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                  You know the answer Jim

                                  They do plenty, but they dont stop respiratory viruses

                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                    Posted by jimmyp on 12/9/2021, 17:57:39, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                    I'm sorry, that's plainly and demonstrably complete bollocks.

                                    It's nothing like as bad as the cycles horseshit, though, which is just embarrassing. Your chief supporters in this particular endeavour being a (not the brightest) sparky from Ampthill and a plasterer from Greater Manchester whose idea of musical sophistication is a pair of monobrowed talent vacuums. Who would absolutely be any reasonable person's advocate, had they not read anything by anyone educated to a reasonable degree in a relevant subject, of course.

                                    Cheers, Jim

                                      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                      Posted by bbb on 12/9/2021, 18:39:35, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                      Hmmm, I agree with some of what Dr.Ince posts disagree with others. Unlike some of the holier than thou types on here I mostly keep an open mind with things tbh.

                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                        Posted by jimmyp on 12/9/2021, 19:45:16, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                        To be completely fair, to me (as I always like to be), I did.

                                        I read the first time someone came out with that shite, had a 'hmm', went and looked it up and decided that someone qualified to talk about it knew much more than the 'innit, sniff' types who just regurgitate, verbatim, without a modicum of actual understaning.

                                        Fair play not biting, though.

                                        Rustic pulled pork, roast spuds and carrots, green beans and pancetta fried in garlic. Washed down with Goose IPA.

                                        Cheers, Jim

                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                          Posted by bbb on 12/9/2021, 20:18:33, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"



                                          Now that sounds good!!

                                          Roast chicken dinnerbobs with all the standards trimmings in SK11. Washed down with a pint of ice cold water*



                                          *my body is a temple

                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                          Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 18:44:29, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                          Pure comedy.

                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                            Posted by bbb on 12/9/2021, 18:55:15, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                            You really are proving to be a very strange little man.

                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                              Posted by Mahatma Gander on 13/9/2021, 9:08:15, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                              Of course I am Gollum.

                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                Posted by bbb on 13/9/2021, 9:45:13, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                Point proved

                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                  Posted by Mahatma Gander on 13/9/2021, 10:02:28, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                  Lol, you really think like that don't you?

                                                  And you call me strange.

                                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                    Posted by bbb on 13/9/2021, 10:10:20, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                    And again

                                                      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                      Posted by Mahatma Gander on 13/9/2021, 10:28:25, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                      Chuckles on the South coast.

                                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                        Posted by bbb on 13/9/2021, 10:41:49, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                        That really doesn't surprise me....

                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                          Posted by Mahatma Gander on 13/9/2021, 13:53:11, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                          I should imagine you're used to be laughed at.

                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                          Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 18:00:19, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                          Demonstrate it then please, NaG has so far been unable to and MG has gone out or something

                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                            Posted by jimmyp on 12/9/2021, 19:40:35, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                            The beauty of it is that I don't even need to as half of your links proving the opposite already do it.

                                            Cheers, Jim

                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                              Posted by Doctor Ince on 13/9/2021, 6:49:00, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                              They don't. Other posters have taken a line or extract from some of them with 0 context and in each case I've responded with the bit they've missed out that means it's not actually making the point they think.
                                              There are some that state there may be a small benefit but dont offer definitive proof, which is what I'm after

                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                Posted by Mahatma Gander on 13/9/2021, 8:53:09, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                No, that's not what you did.

                                                You added a point that indicated a weakness in masks. At no point have you come up with anything that suggests that masks have the zero impact that you have often claimed in the past.

                                                The only difference between most of these is how much impact masks might make.

                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                          Posted by boz on 12/9/2021, 17:01:01, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                          of course they do aspergers boy,

                                          why dont you focus on you for a change and not use this board as your own public self experiment?

                                          You wont understand this though

                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                            Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 16:59:51, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                            So what do they do?

                                            This advice from the NHS to staff should help you.

                                            https://www.england.nhs.uk/2021/07/nhs-patients-staff-and-visitors-must-continue-to-wear-face-coverings-in-healthcare-settings/

                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                              Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 17:04:40, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                              See my reply to MG below.

                                              They do plenty and are very useful, just not in this context.

                                              I know you're proper radical about this but there is no evidence they work for viruses. I'm genuinely surprised you continue to be anti science

                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 17:12:16, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                It's you who's anti-science.

                                                The virus is found in the aerosol droplets of the exhaled breath. These droplets will be absorbed by the mask, unlike breath with no covering.

                                                The evidence is there, just not in the deniers' websites.

                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                  Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 17:16:47, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                  almost criminally misled at this stage.

                                                  Here is an exhaustive list of studies showing masks have no impact.

                                                  T Jefferson, M Jones, et al. Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses. MedRxiv. 2020 Apr 7. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v2

                                                  J Xiao, E Shiu, et al. Nonpharmaceutical measures for pandemic influenza in non-healthcare settings – personal protective and environmental measures. Centers for Disease Control. 26(5); 2020 May. https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

                                                  J Brainard, N Jones, et al. Facemasks and similar barriers to prevent respiratory illness such as COVID19: A rapid systematic review. MedRxiv. 2020 Apr 1. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1.full.pdf

                                                  L Radonovich M Simberkoff, et al. N95 respirators vs medical masks for preventing influenza among health care personnel: a randomized clinic trial. JAMA. 2019 Sep 3. 322(9): 824-833. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2749214

                                                  J Smith, C MacDougall. CMAJ. 2016 May 17. 188(8); 567-574. https://www.cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567

                                                  F bin-Reza, V Lopez, et al. The use of masks and respirators to prevent transmission of influenza: a systematic review of the scientific evidence. 2012 Jul; 6(4): 257-267. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779801/

                                                  J Jacobs, S Ohde, et al. Use of surgical face masks to reduce the incidence of the common cold among health care workers in Japan: a randomized controlled trial. Am J Infect Control. 2009 Jun; 37(5): 417-419. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19216002/

                                                  M Viola, B Peterson, et al. Face coverings, aerosol dispersion and mitigation of virus transmission risk. https://arxiv.org/abs/2005.10720, https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2005/2005.10720.pdf

                                                  S Grinshpun, H Haruta, et al. Performance of an N95 filtering facepiece particular respirator and a surgical mask during human breathing: two pathways for particle penetration. J Occup Env Hygiene. 2009; 6(10):593-603. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/15459620903120086

                                                  H Jung, J Kim, et al. Comparison of filtration efficiency and pressure drop in anti-yellow sand masks, quarantine masks, medical masks, general masks, and handkerchiefs. Aerosol Air Qual Res. 2013 Jun. 14:991-1002. https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-13-06-oa-0201.pdf

                                                  C MacIntyre, H Seale, et al. A cluster randomized trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers. BMJ Open. 2015; 5(4) https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.long

                                                  N95 masks explained. https://www.honeywell.com/en-us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-masks-explained

                                                  V Offeddu, C Yung, et al. Effectiveness of masks and respirators against infections in healthcare workers: A systematic review and meta-analysis. Clin Inf Dis. 65(11), 2017 Dec 1; 1934-1942. https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/65/

                                                  C MacIntyre, Q Wang, et al. A cluster randomized clinical trial comparing fit-tested and non-fit-tested N95 respirators to medical masks to prevent respiratory virus infection in health care workers. Influenza J. 2010 Dec 3. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00198.x?fbclid=IwAR3kRYVYDKb0aR-su9_me9_vY6a8KVR4HZ17J2A_80f_fXUABRQdhQlc8Wo

                                                  M Walker. Study casts doubt on N95 masks for the public. MedPage Today. 2020 May 20. https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/publichealth/86601

                                                  C MacIntyre, Q Wang, et al. A cluster randomized clinical trial comparing fit-tested and non-fit-tested N95 respirators to medical masks to prevent respiratory virus infection in health care workers. Influenza J. 2010 Dec 3. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1750-2659.2011.00198.x?fbclid=IwAR3kRYVYDKb0aR-su9_me9_vY6a8KVR4HZ17J2A_80f_fXUABRQdhQlc8Wo

                                                  N Shimasaki, A Okaue, et al. Comparison of the filter efficiency of medical nonwoven fabrics against three different microbe aerosols. Biocontrol Sci. 2018; 23(2). 61-69. https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_pdf/-char/en

                                                  T Tunevall. Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: A controlled study. World J Surg. 1991 May; 15: 383-387. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01658736

                                                  N Orr. Is a mask necessary in the operating theatre? Ann Royal Coll Surg Eng 1981: 63: 390-392. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf

                                                  N Mitchell, S Hunt. Surgical face masks in modern operating rooms – a costly and unnecessary ritual? J Hosp Infection. 18(3); 1991 Jul 1. 239-242. https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf

                                                  C DaZhou, P Sivathondan, et al. Unmasking the surgeons: the evidence base behind the use of facemasks in surgery. JR Soc Med. 2015 Jun; 108(6): 223-228. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

                                                  L Brosseau, M Sietsema. Commentary: Masks for all for Covid-19 not based on sound data. U Minn Ctr Inf Dis Res Pol. 2020 Apr 1. https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all- Covid-19-not-based-sound-data

                                                  N Leung, D Chu, et al. Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks Nature Research. 2020 Mar 7. 26,676-680 (2020). https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-16836/v1

                                                  S Rengasamy, B Eimer, et al. Simple respiratory protection – evaluation of the filtration performance of cloth masks and common fabric materials against 20-1000 nm size particles. Ann Occup Hyg. 2010 Oct; 54(7): 789-798. https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744

                                                  S Bae, M Kim, et al. Effectiveness of surgical and cotton masks in blocking SARS-CoV-2: A controlled comparison in 4 patients. Ann Int Med. 2020 Apr 6. https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342

                                                  S Rengasamy, B Eimer, et al. Simple respiratory protection – evaluation of the filtration performance of cloth masks and common fabric materials against 20-1000 nm size particles. Ann Occup Hyg. 2010 Oct; 54(7): 789-798. https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744

                                                  C MacIntyre, H Seale, et al. A cluster randomized trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers. BMJ Open. 2015; 5(4) https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577.long

                                                  W Kellogg. An experimental study of the efficacy of gauze face masks. Am J Pub Health. 1920. 34-42. https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.10.1.34

                                                  M Klompas, C Morris, et al. Universal masking in hospitals in the Covid-19 era. N Eng J Med. 2020; 382 e63. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

                                                  E Person, C Lemercier et al. Effect of a surgical mask on six minute walking distance. Rev Mal Respir. 2018 Mar; 35(3):264-268. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29395560/

                                                  B Chandrasekaran, S Fernandes. Exercise with facemask; are we handling a devil’s sword – a physiological hypothesis. Med Hypothese. 2020 Jun 22. 144:110002. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32590322/

                                                  P Shuang Ye Tong, A Sugam Kale, et al. Respiratory consequences of N95-type mask usage in pregnant healthcare workers – A controlled clinical study. Antimicrob Resist Infect Control. 2015 Nov 16; 4:48. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222/

                                                  T Kao, K Huang, et al. The physiological impact of wearing an N95 mask during hemodialysis as a precaution against SARS in patients with end-stage renal disease. J Formos Med Assoc. 2004 Aug; 103(8):624-628. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662/

                                                  F Blachere, W Lindsley et al. Assessment of influenza virus exposure and recovery from contaminated surgical masks and N95 respirators. J Viro Methods. 2018 Oct; 260:98-106. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30029810/

                                                  F Blachere, W Lindsley et al. Assessment of influenza virus exposure and recovery from contaminated surgical masks and N95 respirators. J Viro Methods. 2018 Oct; 260:98-106. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30029810/

                                                  A Chughtai, S Stelzer-Braid, et al. Contamination by respiratory viruses on our surface of medical masks used by hospital healthcare workers. BMC Infect Dis. 2019 Jun 3; 19(1): 491. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31159777/

                                                  L Zhiqing, C Yongyun, et al. J Orthop Translat. 2018 Jun 27; 14:57-62. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30035033/

                                                  C MacIntyre, H Seale, et al. A cluster randomized trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers. BMJ Open. 2015; 5(4) https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577

                                                  A Beder, U Buyukkocak, et al. Preliminary report on surgical mask induced deoxygenation during major surgery. Neurocirugia. 2008; 19: 121-126.

                                                  http://scielo.isciii.es/pdf/neuro/v19n2/3.pdf

                                                  D Lukashev, B Klebanov, et al. Cutting edge: Hypoxia-inducible factor 1-alpha and its activation-inducible short isoform negatively regulate functions of CD4+ and CD8+ T lymphocytes. J Immunol. 2006 Oct 15; 177(8) 4962-4965. https://www.jimmunol.org/content/177/8/4962

                                                  A Sant, A McMichael. Revealing the role of CD4+ T-cells in viral immunity. J Exper Med. 2012 Jun 30; 209(8):1391-1395. https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/3420330

                                                  Effectiveness of Adding a Mask Recommendation to Other Public Health Measures to Prevent SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Danish Mask Wearers: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33205991/

                                                  Facemasks in the COVID-19 era: A health hypothesis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC768061

                                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                    Posted by HH on 12/9/2021, 18:09:17, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                    I just clicked the first one and the conclusion recommendeds the wearing of face masks - Based on observational evidence from the previous SARS epidemic included in the previous version of our Cochrane review we recommend the use of masks..

                                                    Not a bad effort at fishing though for a Sunday evening. Cap doffed.

                                                      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                      Posted by HH on 12/9/2021, 18:17:15, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                      3rd one concludes: We consider that the balance
                                                      of evidence is that facemasks may offer some protection against primary respiratory virus infection
                                                      when used in community settings outside the home


                                                      As Realistic said before where he's handed you your arse on a plate, have you even bothered to read these or just regurgitated what your twitter / reddit echo chamber has shown you today?

                                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                        Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 18:20:37, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                        The first link...the problem with only reading the conclusion is you missed this

                                                        Compared to no masks there was no reduction of influenza-like illness (ILI) cases (Risk Ratio 0.93, 95%CI 0.83 to 1.05) or influenza (Risk Ratio 0.84, 95%CI 0.61-1.17) for masks in the general population, nor in healthcare workers (Risk Ratio 0.37, 95%CI 0.05 to 2.50). There was no difference between surgical masks and N95 respirators: for ILI (Risk Ratio 0.83, 95%CI 0.63 to 1.08), for influenza (Risk Ratio 1.02, 95%CI 0.73 to 1.43).
                                                        The conclusion doesnt match the evidence.


                                                        Nothing firm in that summary from the third linkis there...' we consider there may be...' I've said as much on this thread and elsewhere on here.
                                                        There are a few studies that say there may be a benefit but dont offer much in the way of concrete proof, and they're all observational rather than actual RCT studies

                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                          Posted by boz on 12/9/2021, 18:34:43, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                          have you got a head of steam up yet? pumping away as you are, ooooh

                                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                            Posted by HH on 12/9/2021, 18:26:07, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                            The problem you have is you've said it proves masks don't work whatsoever. Not even a little bit.

                                                            And the authors from that report say that evidence from an actual pandemic of a respiratory virus leads them to conclude masks should be worn.

                                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                              Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 18:41:14, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                              Look at the limitations listed in that study, and the assumptions made in the paragraph above that.

                                                              They are not offering definitive proof and there is nothing in there to prove masks work in the way we've been sold.

                                                              I've acknowledged some studies (all observational) suggest there may be possibly be a very small benefit, maybe, to wearing one but none have proved it to any statistical significance

                                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                Posted by HH on 12/9/2021, 18:46:42, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                You've had a decent trawl. Good effort.

                                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                  Posted by boz on 12/9/2021, 18:49:59, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                  yeah, not a bad innings, didnt quite make a 50 but a fair crack, hooking the usual suspects a treat.

                                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                        Posted by Realistic on 12/9/2021, 17:30:06, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                        This is a very amusing post.

                                                        It’s amusing because you wrote “ Here is an exhaustive list of studies showing masks have no impact.” - what’s amusing is that it’s very clear that you have actually not read any of these at all. Clearly, you have copy/pasted this list from one of your favorite websites and just assumed (like you always do) that it supports your view.


                                                        I clicked on three of these at random. One didn’t work. One was a study that advocated for regularly replacing surgical masks after a certain amount of use, and the other was a study that showed that cloth masks are not as effective as surgical masks.

                                                        I was going to ask you whether you honestly thought that if you post a bunch of studies you say supports a view that is contrary to popular opinion, that people will not bother to actually look at them. Then again, I suppose that’s exactly what you have done.

                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                          Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 18:20:56, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                          I picked a random one, I liked the name Viola, their conclusion . . .

                                                          For coughing, all face covers, with the exception of the
                                                          respirator, allow a reduction of the front flow through jet by
                                                          at least 63% but maybe as high as 86% if the unfiltered cough
                                                          reaches distances beyond the measurable limits in this work.
                                                          For the FFP1 and FFP2 masks, which do not have the valve
                                                          system, the airflow is pushed through the mask material and
                                                          the front throughflow does not extend by more than 40±2 cm
                                                          for the FFP1 mask and 11±2 cm for FFP2 mask. However,
                                                          if these masks are not correctly fitted though, leaking jets are
                                                          formed. These jets not only can travel significant distances
                                                          (beyond the boundaries of our field of view), but are also
                                                          only partially filtered because they do not flew through the
                                                          mask fabric.


                                                          That doesn't quite say what you said, does it? As others have looked at more I haven't bothered reading them all but you aren't putting up a convincing argument here.

                                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                            Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 18:35:50, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                            Somehow you accidentally missed off this bit

                                                            Surgical and handmade masks, and face shields, generate
                                                            significant backward leakage jets that have the potentia

                                                            Please present definitive proof that masks work in the form of a study post 2020 (as it is widely accepted that the consensus was masks dont work prior to 2020).

                                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                              Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 19:18:04, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                              Fair enough, and I can't be annoyed at "pulling your plonked" can I?

                                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 18:44:01, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                First answer the question, what did you mean by that?

                                                                And you keep saying masks have no impact, that study says otherwise. It seems several of the others do too so you have already done that yourself.

                                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                  Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 18:45:28, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                  I've acknowledged many times some studies say there may possibly be a small impact but there's no definitive proof

                                                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                    Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 18:49:15, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                    Not going to answer the question then?

                                                                    We're done talking I think.

                                                                    A small impact is all I have ever suggested.

                                                                      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                      Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 18:50:17, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                      What question?

                                                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                        Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 19:01:45, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                        Same as it was when I first asked.

                                                                        What did you mean by "I didn't have you down as one of them."

                                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                          Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 19:16:10, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                          Oh I was just pulling your plonked a bit with that, I know you wouldn't really judge someone by their name

                                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                              Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 17:35:06, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                              I didnt know about the one that didnt work but then I dont regularly go and check they're all up

                                                              We've discussed the cloth v surgical mask study on here before and I know it's in there. There are a handful of studies that show some masks might have a very minor effect, possibly, on certain groups and in that regard surgical masks would be the way to go.
                                                              It's widely acknowledged that cloth masks do #### all for anything


                                                              And yes, I've said on here many times that if people do wear masks they should be used properly, I.e. changed after every use and if you've touched the front etc. Most people share with partners or leave the mask in cars or pockets.


                                                              So yes, I have read them and knew those studies were in there. Nothing that shows they definitely do work and need to be mandated for public safety.

                                                              Your assumption was a fair one to make, but incorrect

                                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                Posted by Realistic on 12/9/2021, 17:45:11, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                You posted a list of studies that you said showed that “masks have no impact” - your words, not mine.

                                                                The studies that you posted (at least the few I checked) show nothing of the sort. In fact, in the two that actually did work they show the precise opposite - namely that they do have an impact, and the degree to which they work varies depending on the material used and the amount of time they are worn for.

                                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                  Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 17:53:31, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                  If they're the two I'm thinking of they both show a possible small impact when used in conjunction with other measures and when masks are used and worn correctly, and they're both observational rather than the gold standard RCT so have limitations

                                                                  If that doesn't sound like them please link them

                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                          Posted by What???? on 12/9/2021, 17:11:58, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                          And you're not 'anti science'? ####ing hell.

                                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                    Posted by boz on 12/9/2021, 16:20:42, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                    if he comes back with a 'credible' explanation im converted

                                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                    Posted by bbb on 12/9/2021, 13:17:39, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                    Oh ffs. You've gone and upset the 'empty room' brigade now....

                                                      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                      Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 13:43:40, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                      Why don't you think about that post and how utterly stupid it makes you sound?

                                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                        Posted by bbb on 12/9/2021, 13:53:43, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                        Why don't you stop being such a spunk bubble, cotton wool boy?

                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                          Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 14:09:18, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                          Oh Lord, I can't do this to you again.

                                                          You made such a complete arsehole out of yourself last time you went down this road. One of the most embarrassing ever efforts in the history of this board.

                                                          I'll let you have the room.

                                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                            Posted by bbb on 12/9/2021, 14:39:11, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                            If you say so, you arrogant patronising prick. The fact you've got the likes of 'boz' agreeing with you says it all.

                                                            What a winner.

                                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                              Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 15:13:09, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                              I agree with MG on the subject of masks and vaccines.

                                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                Posted by boz on 12/9/2021, 14:41:26, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                when you are giving out pocket money to your kids, do you give them advice on how to spend it like most parents?

                                                                asking for a mate

                                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                  Posted by bbb on 12/9/2021, 15:05:16, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                  Eventually it'll come out who you are so do yourself a favour and Don't ever talk about my kids.

                                                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                    Posted by boz on 12/9/2021, 15:31:09, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                    i wasnt talking about your kids you weapon, i was talking about you you flid.


                                                                    Eventually it'll come out who you are so do...

                                                                    well maybe it will, maybe it wont, maybe f*** yourself

                                                                    to you, im Mendy, whatever the f*** that means

                                                                    is it something to do with man cty rape bloke? who knows, you talk bs and are pretty immature for a bloke with two kids and your age.

                                                                    you often slander people you dont know on here and call them fritzll and spastic etc...


                                                                    not very pleasent are you

                                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                              Posted by boz on 12/9/2021, 14:18:40, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                              You made such a complete arsehole out of yourself last time you went down this road. One of the most embarrassing ever efforts in the history of this board.

                                                              Spot on,

                                                              ps dont waste youre time on it

                                                              hes probably hanging out from dark fruits and cocaine, best let him be , the w****r

                                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                        Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 13:05:09, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                        PS You've provided pictures from a guy named Zuby . . .

                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                          Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 13:04:17, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                          Not solely no. Are you really not going to answer the question?

                                                          And no what was said at the time was that the priority should be hospitals.

                                                          And the US CDC, the WHO, the NHS etc all keep saying that they are an important part of combating the pandemic. Just why is that?

                                                          Or are you going to keep hiding from the questions.

                                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                            Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 17:02:23, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                            The fact his name is Zuby shouldn't mean anything. I didn't have you down as one of them.

                                                            Masks are primarily worn to prevent things such as blood and saliva and other contaminates being transferred. They are not worm to stop respiratory viruses, which are much much much smaller, being transmitted. You know that so stop being disingenuous.

                                                            Politics mostly. Their advise was markedly different early 2020.

                                                            My challenge to you and NaG from the other day still stands. If masks work, prove it. You're the ones who made the claim initially. Show me a credible study post March 2020 that shows empirically that masks work. There are a small handful that potentially hint at a possible very minor benefit if combined with other measures, but nothing that can be shown to be directly down to masks.

                                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                              Posted by Mahatma Gander on 12/9/2021, 18:29:26, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                              One of them? What do you mean by that?

                                                              And while you're at it please tell me why you believe "Zuby" rather than the CDC, WHO and NHS etc? I just don't get why you would trust him to produce factual evidence.

                                                              I'm not being disingenuous just because I disagree with you. Viruses may be smaller but a lot of the viral load is carried on far bigger droplets which are filtered out to an extent by masks. Reduce the viral load and amount of virus in the air and you reduce the chance of infection and improve people's chance to resist infection. There's plain and simple logic there.

                                                              And thanks for providing some studies that indicate that masks do have an effect of their own. Saved me a job. What these studies seem to be indicating is that masks have an effect, they won't control a pandemic on their own but neither will anything else.

                                                              What you don't seem to get is that we need a package of measures that will reduce infection / serious illness that work together. You've done nothing to prove that masks can't be a valid contributor.

                                                              And what do you mean "politics"?

                                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 18:44:39, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                He's posted pictures of actual mask boxes stating they don't work. You're sceptical and a reason you gave for that is because he's called Zuby.

                                                                There are some studies that indicate masks may have, possible, a very very small impact. I'm asking for definitive proof they do work. That RCt one NaG linked the other day was laughable as they had no proper control group as they told each group which was which, and they paid the masking group so the results are not free from bias.

                                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                  Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 18:49:44, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                  And what I mean by politics is

                                                                  People like on Fauci are on record early 2020 saying masks have no impact and are not recommended.

                                                                  NaG originally suggested he changed his mind because of science. I am asked for the study that came out after 2020 that changed his mind. I'm yet to be shown it.

                                                                  Some studys that say there may be a small benefit are not enough. I'm after this mythical study thstbproves beyond doubt that masks are effective.

                                                                  It's my belief masks were recommended as a visual reminder to follow other social distancing rules.

                                                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                    Posted by jimmyp on 12/9/2021, 19:53:12, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                    Apart from being, demonstrably, a weapons-grade weapon as well as a borderline sociopath/psychopath, Fauci has said a great many things. He's also said the exact opposite of those things some time later.

                                                                    He's hardly reliable.

                                                                    Besides, if masks work, even only, as "a visual reminder to follow other social distancing rules" then you must accept that they actually do have an effect.

                                                                    It's all very well spouting this stuff and referencing all and sundry but you do need to apply some comprehension and logic to it as well.

                                                                    Cheers, Jim

                                                                      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                      Posted by Doctor Ince on 13/9/2021, 6:53:05, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                      I agree with you on Fauci. I only mentioned him because some on here will only listen to what people like him say. NaG is insistent he changed his mind based on science so I've asked for evidence of that.

                                                                      Your second paragraph is also true. We have been told they protect others though, which isnt true and is what I'm disputing. They do work as a visual reminder, they do not actually stop transmission.
                                                                      If, instead of masks, the government had recommend always walking round with a finger in your arse to stop anal transmission would you do it?

                                                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                        Posted by jimmyp on 13/9/2021, 11:24:56, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                        I'm an engineer, therefore a lazy bastard. I'd have bought a butt-plug.

                                                                        But, yes, they do. All of those links you've provided demonstrate as much. They argue how effective they are but not one of them demonstrates that they do nothing.

                                                                        Cheers, Jim

                                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                          Posted by Nearly a Genius on 13/9/2021, 8:59:36, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                          Don't be so ridiculous.

                                                                          No-one breathes out of their arse, even though some delight in talking out of theirs.

                                                                          Masks entrap aerosol droplets which contain the virus, some more effectively than others.

                                                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                            Posted by Yeah but on 13/9/2021, 11:13:10, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                            So why aren't we told to wear them at all times then?

                                                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                              Posted by Nearly a Genius on 13/9/2021, 11:36:05, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                              Because they're not necessary in the open air, nor in your own home if no-one has the virus. Do use common sense.

                                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                  Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 17:18:34, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                  The Mayo Clinic credible enough for you?
                                                                  https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

                                                                    Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                    Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 17:22:42, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                    Ok so I dont know if you know or not, but that's not a study. That's just a link to a website where someone has written what they were told.

                                                                    Have you got an actual scientific study that has control groups (and isn't giving financial incentives to one group) that isolates masks alone and proves they work?

                                                                      Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                      Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 17:24:25, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                      Keep your head in the sand.

                                                                      Who is paying for all the anti-science bollocks you keep digging up?

                                                                        Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                        Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 17:26:19, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"



                                                                        Comedy gold NaG.

                                                                        I've linked plenty of studies by reputable organisations above. I've asked you to provide just 1 and you've resorted to this kind of childish nonsense.

                                                                        Think I'm best off leaving it here, got a late roast to enjoy in any case

                                                                          Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                          Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 17:33:24, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                          Aren't you lucky?

                                                                          Some of us have houses to run and meals to cook, so can't spend hours trawling the internet for stuff that may, or may not, as illustrated by Realistic's reply to you, back up your wittering son.

                                                                            Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                            Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 17:36:26, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                            I have all those things too. It's only one of us that has spent all day (and week) on here though.

                                                                              Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                                              Posted by Nearly a Genius on 12/9/2021, 18:27:55, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                                              Have you?
                                                                              I don't know, I wasn't on here for considerable amounts of time.

                                                  Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                  Posted by boz on 12/9/2021, 10:39:26, in reply to "Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                  It wouldn't have made much difference.

                                                Re: Vaccine Passport Scheme…

                                                Posted by Doctor Ince on 12/9/2021, 10:01:39, in reply to "Vaccine Passport Scheme…"

                                                Said as much on Facebook the other day. It was all just a big threat to try and get younger people to have the vaccine.

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