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    Statistics and hypocrisy

    Posted by CP Hat on 12/2/2020, 12:37:05

    Everyone now mocking the fact that GJ / LTFC use a lot of statistics in terms of opposition analysis and performance analysis at every opportunity.

    At the same time those same people have declared an admiration for the 'Brentford model' which, ahem, is majorly based upon, even reliant upon, statistics and performance analysis.

    All top coaches, whether Klopp, Bielsa or Bowyer, use loads of opposition data to help prepare for a match. Why shouldn't we?

    We're obviously not at their level yet and don't have their wealth but I can understand completely why we measure them, indeed it's pleasing to hear that we know what distance and levels of intensity players run in games and training.

    Wtf do people feel the need to criticise that. That isn't the reason why our form is poor.

      Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

      Posted by Yea on 12/2/2020, 14:07:00, in reply to "Statistics and hypocrisy"

      Surely there's a difference between measuring and letting it pick your team as in Tunnicliffes case, madness!

        Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

        Posted by West Side Vinny on 12/2/2020, 14:22:05, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

        Whatever anyone thinks of Tunni stats do not pick him, as of course you well know.

          Stats and Hip

          Posted by Yea on 12/2/2020, 14:29:04, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

          True, and I have only been to about 50% of the games. BUT its hard to see what offers to be such a regular starter as well you know!

            Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

            Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 14:23:35, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

            No, Jones does after he reads the stats!

              Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

              Posted by West Side Vinny on 12/2/2020, 14:25:21, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

              https://members.boardhost.com/lutonoutlaws/msg/1581517483.html

                Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                Posted by HemHat on 12/2/2020, 14:34:44, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                Instead of just getting abusive why not explain why you think Tunnicliffe is such a good player?
                You're apparently ITK and work at the club and you promote yourself as a good judge of player (although you loved Jordan Cook!!), so you must be able to offer some insight.

                As it happens I don't think Tunnicliffe is as bad as being made out, he does a lot of running work off the ball which we miss when he goes off.
                I think Pelly does a lot of the box to box running and Tunnicliffe a lot of the sideways, so is less noticeable.

                I would be genuinely interested to hear your thoughts.

                  Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                  Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 14:47:32, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                  I wasn't even making a point about Tunnicliffe, it's just GJ's stats speach isn't something that will resonate with any fans particularly.

                  Generally, they like chest-beating, tubthumping stuff, or crap jokes, they're not all that interested in how many meters a player has run during a defeat. Even though he's probably a very bright chap, most of this stuff will just go over lots of fans heads.

                    Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                    Posted by HemHat on 12/2/2020, 14:49:29, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                    I agree.

                    He talks like a coach, and uses modern coaching terms which most fans won't understand or care about.
                    I remember once Mourinho talked of not defending lateral free kicks well enough and not many people had any idea what he was going on about.

          Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

          Posted by HH on 12/2/2020, 12:48:14, in reply to "Statistics and hypocrisy"

          At the risk of boring everyone to death there are some quite interesting* articles on Brentford's approach here.

          https://footballbh.net/2019/05/28/brentford-championship-tactical-analysis-statistics-analysis/

          https://talksport.com/football/fa-cup/659667/brentford-data-revolution-england-smartest-club-championship-leicester-fa-cup/

          *Well, I thought so!

            Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

            Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 12:51:18, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

            Thing is that they have a great team spirit and all the players know their jobs and play for the Manager.

            You can't put it all down to date.

              Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

              Posted by Godders on 12/2/2020, 14:19:06, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

              You mean pretty much everything we had before GJ systematically destroyed it...

              🙄

                Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                Posted by Brendan on 12/2/2020, 12:53:23, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                Steve McNulty used his brain when playing

              Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

              Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 12:38:24, in reply to "Statistics and hypocrisy"

              Brentford make a lot of their signings based on data.

              But they have often been young, with big sell-ons, and largely successful.

              I doubt the Computer would have told GJ to have signed a load of injury-prone 30 somethings.

                Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                Posted by Music Critic on 12/2/2020, 14:30:20, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                Brentford are in shit loads of debt, aren't they?

                It may just be in debt to the owner but, still...

                  Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                  Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 14:33:58, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                  Not far off going up though and one season in the Prem would clear that.

                    Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                    Posted by Ches Fordroad on 12/2/2020, 14:55:28, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                    And if they don't???

                    At some point the owner's funds are going to run out. For all the star-struck media adoration, they're still essentially a one-man funded club.

                      Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                      Posted by Music Critic on 12/2/2020, 14:48:58, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                      Yeah but they still might fukk it up and then never make it and then what?

                      Also, won't most of the income from the Prem go on players and wages anyway rather than debt management?

                      Risky strategy that may pay off. Or it may not. I think, in terms of transfer and recruitment strategy, they're doing good things but they're still throwing a lot of cash at it

                      On more of a positive, I don't now how much of their debt is stadium construction-related. If much of it is to do with the new ground, that's a slightly rosier picture for them, I'd suggest

                        Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                        Posted by HH on 12/2/2020, 14:56:35, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                        They've already sold the new ground and Griffin Park, so they'll lease it.

                        It's generated them like 80 million, apparently.

                        Not sure how it will play out in the future, however.

                          Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                          Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 15:05:39, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                          What? Who have they sold the new ground too?

                            Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                            Posted by HH on 12/2/2020, 15:13:15, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                            Down the bottom of this page:

                            http://financialfootballnews.com/brentford-fcs-2018-finances/

                            The stadium arrangement is a peculiar one, with Brentford entering a development agreement with a third party (not named) who the club will sell Griffin Park to and also the land for the new stadium. Griffin Park is to be sold for £30m while the new stadium is being sold to the developer for £52m. This will raise a huge sum of cash for Brentford and a brand spanking new ground which the club will then have to lease each year rather than own, reducing the initial cash needed significantly.

                            This will see Brentford record a massive profit on the sale of the stadium, meaning Brentford will probably record profits not only for themselves, but also for a Championship club next year.

                            The only issue here is obvious, they will not own their stadium. This may make expanding at a later date difficulty and will also mean they may have little power at a later date if the developer wishes to use the stadium for other uses (e.g. other sporting events etc.). Brentford would be wise to have a number of safeguards in place (which Iím sure they do). It will be interesting to see how this develops (no pun intended) going forward.

                              Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                              Posted by Music Critic on 12/2/2020, 15:45:36, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                              That sounds pretty shit

                              Leasing? Unnamed 3rd party? All sounds a bit shady to me. They've probably sold it straight away so Bentham can get his money back quickly

                              At least we'll own Power Court (and the other stuff)

                                Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                                Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 15:51:49, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                                The developer are not unnamed though they are actually Brentford's shirt sponsor!

                                And not see any reference to this deal anywhere else.

                                  Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                                  Posted by Music Critic on 12/2/2020, 15:57:33, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                                  Well I was only going by what HH quoted

                                  If it is true I'm sure the club didn't want to publicise it so would be difficult to find a source for this. These football finance commentators are not often wrong though

                                  If it is true it sounds fukking wank to me but what do I know?

                                  And I'd be feeling uncomfortable if I was a fan and knew the club had all sorts of debt attached to it

                                  We already know that West Ham, Villa, Bournemouth and WatfordNonce could face serious finance issues if they go down. Brentford would be no different if they're saddled with that much money owed

                                    Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                                    Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 16:01:02, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                                    it could be true but the developer are not unnamed as I mentioned, which makes it less shady even if it is true.

                                      Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                                      Posted by Music Critic on 12/2/2020, 16:09:05, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                                      Well, yeah, but, as I say, shady or not it still doesn't sound quite the perfect model that is being painted

                                      I'm not being funny but the developer could decide anything in the future including to kick Brentford out of prime real estate and build housing. Unless there's some covenant on the site. But why would a developer be interested in purchasing AFTER the ground is built? What is in it for them?

                                      It's like all these clubs in the Championship that have sold the ground to their owners to get round the system. What happens when these owners then leave/sell up? Does the club then have to buy it back? Would the old owner still control it and ratchet up the rent? Are there clauses to prevent that

                                      So many questions and doubts. As I say at least LTFC (not 2020) will own PC outright and with no debt

                                        Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                                        Posted by Music Critic on 12/2/2020, 16:12:46, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                                        I'll tell you what's in it for the developer - owning some prime London real estate and being able to charge a massive lease or rental fee

                                        I'd feel a real lack of security if I was a Brentford supporter

                          Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                          Posted by EastEnder on 12/2/2020, 14:54:39, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                          Quite a lot I would guess.

                      Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                      Posted by West Side Vinny on 12/2/2020, 14:24:09, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"

                      Actually, Brentford's strike rate isn't particularly good. You never hear of the failures. They also lost quite a bit of money over the last couple of years. It's not the perfect model.

                      And, we've only signed one player who is over 30, Cranie. Before this season his injury record has been decent.

                        Re: Statistics and hypocrisy

                        Posted by Dirk on 12/2/2020, 12:41:35, in reply to "Re: Statistics and hypocrisy"



                        Thought I read somewhere that they monitor all youth players from Premier league clubs + others in case they get released.

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