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    The 21

    Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 10:36:24

    How many of their constituencies voted to Leave in the invisible referendum?

      Re: The 21

      Posted by wolfie on 9/9/2019, 8:29:52, in reply to "The 21"

      Unlike Johnson when we had an actual opportunity to leave the EU in the way promoted by the Leave campaign during the referendum, the 21 mostly voted in favour of leaving via the Withdrawal Agreement.

      Again folks, Boris Johnson voted against us leaving the EU

        Re: The 21

        Posted by Patriotic Hatter on 8/9/2019, 18:37:13, in reply to "The 21"

        More importantly didn’t the 2017 conservative election manifesto promise a “smooth orderly Brexit” and the 2017 labour manifesto promised to “block a no deal Brexit”

        Do you agree that this is what the Tory and Labour manifestos said?

          Re: The 21

          Posted by Farhat on 8/9/2019, 12:04:09, in reply to "The 21"

          Is that relevant? They are supposed to represent ALL constituents.

          The 21 are all against No Deal Brexit, not necessarily against leaving the EU.

            Re: The 21

            Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 12:17:54, in reply to "Re: The 21"

            I am genuinely interested in knowing the statistics but cannot be arsed to do the work.

            Most certainly relevant information to add to the tapestry of decision making.

            If you cannot represent ALL your constituents should it not be the majority next?

              Re: The 21

              Posted by Noddy on 8/9/2019, 13:19:22, in reply to "Re: The 21"

              One of the largest majorities for remain came in Jacob Rees-Mogg's constituency. I suggest you pursue this avenue of thought with him.

                Re: The 21

                Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 13:37:50, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                Not necessary, I have exactly the same opinion of him.

                Re: The 21

                Posted by Doggie Doos on 8/9/2019, 12:48:56, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                Good shot sir.

                  Re: The 21

                  Posted by Mahatma Gander on 8/9/2019, 12:24:45, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                  And how do you work out that the majority would support leaving with "No Deal"?

                  That's a very different result to just leaving in the manner indicated by the likes of our Boris.

                  It makes absolutely no sense to claim that a majority support leaving without a deal.

                    Re: The 21

                    Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 12:27:44, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                    The majority support leaving.

                      Re: The 21

                      Posted by ST on 8/9/2019, 15:11:55, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                      I believe that you do not know that the majority of the population, nor the majority of the people in these 21 constituencies, support leaving.

                      You certainly don't know that the majority support leaving under a no-deal. Statistically it is massively unlikely

                      Three facts:

                      1) The population of the country in 2016 was approx. 65Million, of which 17.5Million voted leave. That leaves 47.5Million at the time who did not vote leave, a number now likely to be closer to 50Million. Including in 2016 2.5Million tax payers not deemed eligable to vote.

                      2) An MPs legal duty is to do what they believe is in the best interests of all those they represent. Thus all of the approx. 100,000 in their constituency not just the 14,000-37,000 (recorded lowest and highest by constituency) who voted leave.

                      3) According to all recent polls, the majority of voters do NOT support a no-deal Brexit.

                      So why does anyone, faced with these facts, believe the 21 have done anything other their duty.

                      (for the avoidance of doubt I support an exit from the EU based on a deal, I do not support a no-deal exit)

                        Re: The 21

                        Posted by oldgold on 8/9/2019, 16:19:11, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                        Remind me who got the most votes in the European elections?

                          Re: The 21

                          Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 16:26:09, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                          Parties advocating remain.

                            Re: The 21

                            Posted by Bertie on 8/9/2019, 16:43:43, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                            Incorrect.

                              Re: The 21

                              Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 16:55:25, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                              Might want to give that old calculator a shake

                                Re: The 21

                                Posted by Bertie on 8/9/2019, 17:50:01, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                Brexit Party/Cons/Labour/Ukip got around 55% of the vote.

                                Cons and Labour both said they would respect the outcome of the referendum.

                                  Re: The 21

                                  Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 18:07:04, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                  I think it's a stretch to pretend Labour are a party of Brexit anymore.

                                  They've been far from clear over the years but they're committed to a second vote on any deal they negotiate and it will campaign for remain against any Tory offering.

                                    Re: The 21

                                    Posted by Bertie on 8/9/2019, 18:14:06, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                    True.
                                    Attempting to ascertain Labours position is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

                                      Re: The 21

                                      Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 18:18:55, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                      Very true!

                              Re: The 21

                              Posted by oldgold on 8/9/2019, 16:28:33, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                              Sorry who won most seats in the first past the post system this Country uses.

                                Re: The 21

                                Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 16:34:23, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                EU elections aren't First Past the Post

                                  Re: The 21

                                  Posted by oldgold on 8/9/2019, 16:41:57, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                  True, I'll give you that!

                                    Re: The 21

                                    Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 17:04:57, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                            Re: The 21

                            Posted by CLINT on 8/9/2019, 15:32:47, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                            "That leaves 47.5Million at the time who did not vote leave, a number now likely to be closer to 50Million. Including in 2016 2.5Million tax payers not deemed eligable to vote".

                            Have you not forgotten the 11 million under voting age.

                              Re: The 21

                              Posted by ST on 8/9/2019, 15:42:41, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                              Nope, not forgotten anything about the stats of that vote.

                              Two things:

                              I don't think the opinion of those under-18 in 2016 should be ignored.

                              And all people of this great country deserve and need representation in parliament, not just voters. That is the view of the 21 MPs in question in this thread.

                              Re: The 21

                              Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 15:17:07, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                              52 - 48.
                              The first number is bigger than the second number, that is a majority.

                                Re: The 21

                                Posted by ST on 8/9/2019, 15:22:20, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                I fully understand the diff btw 52 and 48 and which is larger.

                                I don't dispute that fact.

                                Which of my facts do you dispute? Which are the facts at the heart of today's impasse in Sept 2019.



                                  Re: The 21

                                  Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 15:26:24, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                  I don't dispute any facts.
                                  I am pointing out the vote to leave has not been implemented.

                                    Re: The 21

                                    Posted by ST on 8/9/2019, 15:38:30, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                    That is different to your previous comments. A valid view I will not argue with.

                                    But that is 100% different to stating the 'majority' wish to leave. The majority of people in this country in 2019 I believe do not want to leave and all data points definitely to the majority not wanting a no-deal.

                                    On the flip side the majority of people who voted in June 2016 do want to leave in an orderly fashion.

                                    I urge the PM and MPs to try and round that circle and get a deal. Still time. I believe Amber Rudd when she says the PM is spending little time trying to get that deal and that he is not being truthful with us.

                                      Re: The 21

                                      Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 15:33:38, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                      Because it has turned out not to be such an easy thing to do as many imagined.

                                      It's not like stamping your feet and screaming right I'm off, and slamming the door behind you.
                                      There are legal treaties and agreements, co-operative ventures, EU citizens living here, Brits in the EU, etc. cont. p94.

                                Re: The 21

                                Posted by Mahatma Gander on 8/9/2019, 13:08:38, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                A slight majority supported leave some years ago . . .

                                  Re: The 21

                                  Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 13:09:50, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                  Agreed.

                                  Re: The 21

                                  Posted by Gayguy on 8/9/2019, 12:53:04, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                  I voted leave, happy to leave without a deal. The likes of Grieve and Co (remainders) made it quite clear in the run up to the people's vote that once article 50 had been invoked then we would leave 2 years later with or without a deal. We know what we voted for and don't like being patronised by remainders.

                                    Re: The 21

                                    Posted by Patriotic Hatter on 8/9/2019, 14:04:53, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                    Were you happy to leave without a deal in June 2016?

                                      Re: The 21

                                      Posted by Starh on 8/9/2019, 15:16:51, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                      To be in charge of our own governance, our own laws, own trading etc. Also we will just be the first to leave. The money we pay into the European fund and the freedom of movement. Should I go on....

                                      Why if France is such a great place are the migrants so desperate to reach the Uk.

                                        Re: The 21

                                        Posted by qwertyuiop on 8/9/2019, 16:26:24, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                        Could it be that the uk, having the flexible right to implement its own rules, is a better place to live in France regarding government “hand outs” that France are more rigid about?? Are you blaming the EU for that? Look closer to home for who you should blame. Look up the Dublin agreement while you are at it.

                                          Re: The 21

                                          Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 15:36:51, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                          We already have the right to make our own laws.

                                          And if we're not part of a trading bloc such as the EU, we have to abide by WTO rules, which are very much not beneficial to this country.

                                            Re: The 21

                                            Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 15:31:11, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                            'Our own trading'

                                            Anyone advocating no deal doesn't give a damn about trading.

                                            It's to trading what John Gurney is to football clubs.

                                              Re: The 21

                                              Posted by Patriotic Hatter on 8/9/2019, 15:28:01, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                              Yes please. Do go on... Which law(s) that you might consider to be inflicted on us by Brussels would you most like to change and why?

                                            Re: The 21

                                            Posted by To state the obvious on 8/9/2019, 13:01:27, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                            Your views represent yourself and yourself alone. You cannot possibly know what 17 million others think about no deal.

                                            Re: The 21

                                            Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 12:32:31, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                            But what makes you think they want to leave with no deal?

                                            And the majority in favour of leaving has been dropping.

                                              Re: The 21

                                              Posted by oldgold on 8/9/2019, 16:26:44, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                              OK let's have an election then. Tories to leave, with no deal if necessary, Lib Dems and, possibly, Labour (but who knows what they want), on the other. We need to get this sorted, it really is not good for business planning.

                                                Re: The 21

                                                Posted by qwertyuiop on 8/9/2019, 16:30:51, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                But an election isn’t just a one policy vote is it (that’s what referendums are about), so to say the election is to vote leave, remain, deal, no deal is absolutely the wrong thing to do. And isn’t this a victory for government also that are trying to deflect from “domestic political problems”. Oh how the public is being played since 2016. Time to wake up and look at the wider issues.

                                                  Re: The 21

                                                  Posted by oldgold on 8/9/2019, 16:32:23, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                  Did you see the Chancellors speech?

                                                    Re: The 21

                                                    Posted by qwertyuiop on 8/9/2019, 16:34:35, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                    your point being?

                                                      Re: The 21

                                                      Posted by oldgold on 8/9/2019, 16:41:09, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                      You're the one who stated the Government were merely trying to deflect from domestic issues. The Government have promised more police, additional funding to NHS, equalisation of schools funding, more on defence etc. The years since the 2017 election may just as well not existed. Like him or loath him, you would have had a choice to remove him in 2022.

                                                        Re: The 21

                                                        Posted by qwertyuiop on 8/9/2019, 16:47:59, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                        But the investment is still below pre-crisis/austerity levels. Where is the money coming from? British manufacturing? Increased exports? Ah no, the soon to be defunct banking sector in London. This money can only come from more public borrowing or cuts in other sectors

                                                        Re: The 21

                                                        Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 16:39:35, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                        Yes, pots of gold from the magic money tree to try to make up all the shortfall from the unnecessary cuts. All designed to bribe the electorate.

                                                  Re: The 21

                                                  Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 12:43:45, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                  The question was about leaving, the majority said yes.

                                                    Re: The 21

                                                    Posted by Jimbo on 8/9/2019, 12:47:10, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                    They voted on a basis that leaving wouldnt harm us- not sure that lie resonates with leavers now

                                                      Re: The 21

                                                      Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 12:53:37, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                      Thanks for letting me know my reasons & my current thinking.
                                                      Lucky you're here.

                                                        Re: The 21

                                                        Posted by ST on 8/9/2019, 15:30:24, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                        Do you not see the hypocricy in your comment there.

                                                        I have no doubt you know that you want to proceed with a no deal. Fair enough. I'm not here to take issue with your opinion although I disagree and personally want an exit with a deal.

                                                        Unfortunately you are not just giving your opinion though, but firmly implying that the majority in this country want a no-deal. You are saying your know their opinion! That is statistically false and lacks integrity.

                                                          Re: The 21

                                                          Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 15:42:45, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                          No, I am sorry you are wrong to call me a hypocrit & I will not have words put in my mouth.
                                                          I have repeated endlessly that the result of the 2016 referendum was to leave the EU but have at no point advocated no-deal.
                                                          If you can find any contradiction I will hold my hold hands up.
                                                          My point has always been to highlight the majority voted to leave.
                                                          I have not engaged in semantics, splitting hairs or dancing on the head of a pin as a deliberate strategy to keep my position clear.
                                                          That is a fact.

                                                            Re: The 21

                                                            Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 15:51:56, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                            Has it not occurred to you that the reason we have not left is because it's not that simple?

                                                              Re: The 21

                                                              Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 15:55:25, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                              Yes, that has occurred to me but hardly a reason to ignore the *sigh* democratic will of the people.

                                                                Re: The 21

                                                                Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 16:00:44, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                But do you agree that that might be the reason for not yet having left?

                                                                  Re: The 21

                                                                  Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 16:02:44, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                  No, I do not agree.

                                                                    Re: The 21

                                                                    Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 16:32:36, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                    Oh well.
                                                                    So what do you think is the reason?

                                                                      Re: The 21

                                                                      Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 16:43:59, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                      Parliament.

                                                                        Re: The 21

                                                                        Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 16:51:14, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                        Oh.
                                                                        For trying to do things in a lawful, orderly fashion?

                                                                          Re: The 21

                                                                          Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 16:56:45, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                          I'll have to come back to you at a later date.
                                                                          The Ashes are slipping away & I wish to wallow in despair & booze.

                                                                          But Parliament has ignored the largest democratic exercise in our history, that is quite serious.

                                                                            Re: The 21

                                                                            Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 16:59:50, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                            I thought yesterday the cricket was going to go well.
                                                                            Then the usual England batting collapse, and Smith.

                                                                            Enjoy the booze

                                                                              Re: The 21

                                                                              Posted by qwertyuiop on 8/9/2019, 17:01:27, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                              A bit like Brexit then 🤣🤣🤣

                                                                                Re: The 21

                                                                                Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 17:07:41, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                              Re: The 21

                                                              Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 15:48:52, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                              Your original question seemed to imply that those who had the Tory whip removed were somehow preventing Brexit.

                                                              When in fact most of them probably voted to leave several times with May's deal, whereas our current PM voted against leaving twice.

                                                                Re: The 21

                                                                Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 15:51:41, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                "Seemed to imply" - an ambiguous claim at best.
                                                                It was a genuine query.

                                                                  Re: The 21

                                                                  Posted by H on 8/9/2019, 15:55:20, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                  My apologies

                                                                    Re: The 21

                                                                    Posted by Captain Bleedin' Obvious on 8/9/2019, 16:04:01, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                    & you've dropped a 'H'.

                                                                      Re: The 21

                                                                      Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 16:14:16, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                      Yeah, blame my phone for that!

                                                            Re: The 21

                                                            Posted by Jimbo on 8/9/2019, 12:54:29, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                            Welcome chum

                                                Re: The 21

                                                Posted by Tricky on 8/9/2019, 12:15:37, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                Ken Clarke voted 3 times for Theresa May's agreement, when Boris voted against it.

                                                We would already be out for now if not for Boris ans his mates.

                                                Re: The 21

                                                Posted by HH on 8/9/2019, 10:50:43, in reply to "The 21"

                                                Didn't a fair few of them vote for May's deal which would have seen us out by now?

                                                  Re: The 21

                                                  Posted by Ken el-Worth on 8/9/2019, 10:49:18, in reply to "The 21"

                                                  On a slightly broader note you could say when we voted in our MP back in the early 1970s they sold us a line ( or not ) on joining the Common Market. The Common Market evolved into he much more involved EU, we never voted to join what it has become but neither did we not - until 2016. If we Remain , where will the EU be in ten years or so? A full Federation? Who knows?

                                                    Re: The 21

                                                    Posted by Patriotic Hatter on 8/9/2019, 12:13:08, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                    Why does it matter where the EU will be in 10 years time if we remain?

                                                    Is it not the case that any time we, or any other country eg Denmark, have asked for any kind of opt out (Euro, social chapter) we have got it?

                                                    Genuine question. I’m trying to understand what ardent leavers really want as an outcome in say 5 or 10 years time....

                                                      Re: The 21

                                                      Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 12:24:57, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                      Indeed, the U.K. has got more concessions than any other country.

                                                        Re: The 21

                                                        Posted by SAHB on 8/9/2019, 13:33:31, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                        This is what I have been saying all along,everyone gets their knickers in a twist about the EU but I am not sure we have ever signed up to anything we didn't want to, and the same should be said about the EU army we don't have to have one,we can veto as can others.

                                                      Re: The 21

                                                      Posted by charlatans spivs and thieves on 8/9/2019, 11:33:37, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                      who knows indeed Ken, but who would risk the possibilities of that?

                                                        Re: The 21

                                                        Posted by nev the bear on 8/9/2019, 11:44:16, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                        Google it

                                                      Re: The 21

                                                      Posted by Andy Cappucino on 8/9/2019, 10:41:54, in reply to "The 21"

                                                      52%

                                                        Re: The 21

                                                        Posted by Jimbo on 8/9/2019, 10:37:29, in reply to "The 21"

                                                        No idea-give em a ring and ask them

                                                          Re: The 21

                                                          Posted by Eblockhomeandaway on 8/9/2019, 12:58:52, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                          Why can't the remainers just come clean, I am fed up with all this falsehood they are just looking for reasons to ignore the referendum, we all knew what was voted for and that ended up as leave. All this twisting will end badly no matter which way it ends, this is now the norm and democracy will be the poorer for it. All politicians are rubbish none of them come out of this well, they're all self serving idiots.

                                                            Re: The 21

                                                            Posted by Jimbo on 8/9/2019, 13:00:52, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                            You know leavers were sold a pup

                                                              Re: The 21

                                                              Posted by Starh on 8/9/2019, 13:42:02, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                              We were told that the result would be honoured , no caveats on leaving with good deal or no deal. We want out! end of, despite normal smear campaign of the media and remainers who refuse to accept the result and always know whats best for us. Hear this we still want out.

                                                                Re: The 21

                                                                Posted by Patriotic Hatter on 8/9/2019, 14:11:30, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                Why do you want out with or without a deal?

                                                                Please don’t just say “because we voted for it”. Please try to answer with why you think you voted for it as it’s the only chance anyone who disagrees with you has to attempt to understand your motivations.

                                                                Thanks in advance...

                                                                  Re: The 21

                                                                  Posted by Jimbo on 8/9/2019, 13:46:28, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                  Thats your interpretation-you forget the red bus NHS lie it seems

                                                                    Re: The 21

                                                                    Posted by oldgold on 8/9/2019, 16:50:37, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                    I assume then that you believed the Governments leaflet, sent to all home BEFORE the referendum about the dire effects of leaving, the BoE Governor warning of high inflation, high interest rates, high unemployment, house prices collapsing, getting Obama over to say the UK would be at the back of any trase deals - all truth then?

                                                                      Re: The 21

                                                                      Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 16:55:51, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                      We haven't left yet.
                                                                      And if Trump's words are true (a big if, I know), then that part will happen.

                                                                      Bye bye NHS and food safety legislation.

                                                                      Re: The 21

                                                                      Posted by Starh on 8/9/2019, 13:52:31, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                      Can I suggest Sir you stock up with tins of soup and toilet rolls as we prepare to leave , be prepared my best advice.

                                                                        Re: The 21

                                                                        Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 14:08:07, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                        Why do you want to leave if leaving will mean shortages of essential supplies?

                                                                          Re: The 21

                                                                          Posted by Starh on 8/9/2019, 15:09:52, in reply to "Re: The 21"

                                                                          That was satirical for Jimbo

                                                                            Re: The 21

                                                                            Posted by Nearly a Genius on 8/9/2019, 15:30:14, in reply to "Re: The 21"

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