The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Roger Dagen on January 2, 2024, 11:54 am

I am looking at a Grade 3 mfd in 1895 that has no markings at all on the barrel flats... no serial number, no proof marks...nothing! the barrels are damascus and that pattern just flows through onto the barrel flats. Not sure what to make of this. Top of the bbl is stamped but picture I have is not clear..I can only read the last word (Fulton) so that makes it look like it came out of the Smith factory. Is this a possible legitimate set of barrels/configuration, or should I run away from this gun?

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Tom Breeden on January 2, 2024, 12:32 pm, in reply to "No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Grade 3s were usually marked in two lines 'Hunter Arms Co Fulton New York on the rib extension near the breech. I would be suspicious of an unmarked barrel on a Grade 3 although it might be OK as a shooter with replaced barrels if priced accordingly. However, in our world of vintage shotguns we are always warned to not say 'never' so there is a chance the barrels are original but that's a 'long shot'. Hope this helps.

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Tom Breeden on January 2, 2024, 12:45 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

I overlooked the fact that the barrels are reported as Damascus so I have to alter what is in the previous note and say: I don't know how Grade 3 Damascus barrels were marked although Houchins reports on page l76 that they were Chain Damascus if not Nitro Steel...and if replaced by Hunter Arms the "...replacement barrels can usually be identified by the words Hunter ARMS COMPANY, FULTON, N.Y. stamped on top of one of the barrels."

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Roger Dagen on January 2, 2024, 1:30 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

FWIW: Just learned from the seller that "Hunter Arms Co Makers, Fulton, NY" is stamped on the RIB.

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Tom Breeden on January 2, 2024, 6:45 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Just to clarify: On the rib like a Nitro Steel barrel was marked or on a barrel like a Damascus barrel is supposedly marked?

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Tom Archer on January 2, 2024, 8:45 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

There are thousands of Smith guns I've yet to see; but for what my 2 cents may be worth, I've never seen a set LC Smith Damascus barrels with proof marks. Not saying they're not out there; just haven't personally seen any. As to the barrels, your grade 3 barrels should be Chain Damascus, and Hunter never stamped or identified the Damascus steel type/pattern on the Damascus barrels used regardless of grade. Chain Damascus was the cataloged standard for Grade 3 guns unless fluid steel barrels were ordered. If your barrels were fluid steel, the steel type would be stamped on the bottom of the barrel tubes; or in some cases, engraved atop the barrels. On the Grade 3, the standard fluid steel tubes were usually marked Nitro Steel; but I've seen examples with Crown Steel and Krupp Fluid Steel barrels. And as the Grade 3 was a special-order gun, a customer could have special ordered Whitworth barrels if he was willing to pay the price. With Hunter Arms, there was the catalog standard; then whatever a customer wanted within reason and could afford.

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on January 2, 2024, 9:46 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

To add to what both Mr. Archer and Mr. Breeden have offered, I have several Quality/Grade No. 3 examples, and have both an 1894 and 1896 example with Damascus (not chain Damascus) barrels.

Serial number 37799 (DOM 1894) is a special order Quality 3 with Damascus barrels as well as a very unique Ruffed Grouse engraved on the right lock plate.

Serial number 41024 (DOM 1896) is another special order (engraved rib) Quality/Grade No.3 with Damascus barrels.

As you state your example is from 1895, it would be classified as a Quality 3, as the name changed from Quality to Number sometime in 1896, and it’s very possible that it has similar Damascus barrels to these 2 examples.

Best,
Stephen

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Roger Dagen on January 3, 2024, 6:14 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Update: I received more and better pictures from the seller and now see that there is a matching SN (39,977) on all three pieces. The damascus pattern is identical to that pictured in Stephen's post above. Engraving has a pair of quail on left side and woodcocks on the right side of the receiver. I have completed the purchase and expect to see the gun first hand in a few days.

Thanks to all who responded with helpful information!

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by David Williamson on January 3, 2024, 6:37 am, in reply to "No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Prof marks were put on guns in the early 1920's from what I have read.

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HACo Proof mark on chain damascus barrels

Posted by Drew Hause on January 3, 2024, 7:04 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

I entirely agree with Tom, but this is interesting.
1902 3E 10g with Chain Damascus barrels and the Hunter Arms Proof Mark (Stylized PM and HACo in a square over NP) which was introduced about 1922.
The gun was returned to Hunter Arms in 1931, has a post-1930 replacement forend and it is likely that the barrels were re-proved after some repair or refinish at that time.

WOW. Proving damascus barrels in the 30s?!? What could they have been thinking

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on January 3, 2024, 7:56 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Hi Roger, I am very familiar with serial number 39977.

I looked at it when it was at the RIA October 7, 2022 auction. My interest was that it was an interesting juxtaposition of the serial number of the Quality 3 I posted pictures of above (sn37799).

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1041/6661/engraved-l-c-smithhunter-arms-grade-3-double-barrel-shotgun

If you look at the loop rib (the short rib on the underside of the barrels) you will see a "3" stamped near the barrel loop (just like sn37799 shown above).

At the time, I checked with Dr. Jim, and he researched the records and stated that it was recorded as a 12 gauge No. 2 with 30-inch barrels.

Its a beautiful example.

Congratulations on the acquisition!

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on January 3, 2024, 8:18 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Roger Dagen on January 4, 2024, 6:19 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Interesting that it was recorded in factory book as a No. 2, yet as you noted, it is stamped on the loop rib with a "3". Also the engraving seems to align with pictures of a grade 3 as seen on pages 173 and 175 of John Houchin's L C Smith "The Legend Lives" book. As you looked at this gun, Stephen, was it your impression that the action colors and stock condition were original?
Again, thanks to all who have engaged in conversation around this gun.

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on January 4, 2024, 1:07 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Roger, I have a few LC Smith’s that are entered in the ledgers differently than they are engraved and grade stamped, and sn37799 is also an example of this phenomena. Serial number 37799 was recorded in the ledgers as a Grade 1, however it is stamped with a “3” on the loop rib and on the frame under the left lock plate, and has engraving similar to a grade 3, albeit with the unique Ruffed Grouse engraved on the right lock plate (which we suspect was a special order, although the records do not state that it was a special order gun).

When you receive sn39977, please check on the frame under the left lock plate for a grade stamping.

Here is a photo of what sn37799 looks like.

Regarding the finish of sn39977, I believe that the barrel finish and the case colors on the frame are original, and that the buttstock has been refinished (there is evidence of old finish under the new finish).

Still a beautiful gun!

Stephen

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Roger Dagen on January 4, 2024, 4:36 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Stephen: thanks for the tip on checking under the left lock plate for a grade stamp..I will certainly do that. Also thx for sharing your opinions on the finish/refinish condition!

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Roger Dagen on January 11, 2024, 5:50 pm, in reply to "No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Just wanted to put a period on this thread... purchased the gun and received it today. Serial number IS (39977) stamped on bbl flats, forearm, water table, trigger guard (finished side and underside), backside of the locks, and on the stock (under the trigger guard) (so it has original stock?). Mf'd in 1895. It is a number 3 and the numeral "3" is stamped under the bbl on the loop rib, on the frame under the left lock, & on the stock, next to the serial number under the trigger guard. I believe the bbls are what is called Fine 3 Rod Damascus. I would say it is in excellent condition and has very fancy wood. I am pleased to be its new owner and caretaker!

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on January 12, 2024, 12:26 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Roger, I am glad to hear that you are happy with sn39977! It's a beautiful gun. Are you able to post a picture of the serial number stamped in the stock under the trigger guard? There is a specific "style" the factory used to stamp the serial number in the stock. It looked to be a refinished original stock when I saw it, but I was not able to remove the trigger guard to confirm at the time.
Best,
Stephen

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Roger Dagen on January 12, 2024, 7:54 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Stephen: Here is close-up of the SN stamp on the stock, also the "3" grade stamp:

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on January 24, 2024, 11:33 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Hi Roger, thank you for posting a photo of the serial number under the trigger guard. Its interesting that the font of the grade stamp (3) and the leading "3" in the serial number are different. Perhaps stamped at different times, by different personnel? Has anyone else encountered this before?

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Stephen Sipprell on January 24, 2024, 11:41 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Here is what Serial Number 37799 looks like. The grade stamp and the serial number are the same font.

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by David Williamson on January 25, 2024, 6:27 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Most all removable parts were serial numbered to gun and I would imagine that once the gun was passed on to the next fitting station the serial number was stamped onto it. Once the stock was fitted it also was serial numbered in that department by the stamps they had which could and probably were a little different than the rest of the stations.

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Roger Dagen on January 26, 2024, 7:31 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

David: That makes sense. Thanks for providing that perspective.

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Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?

Posted by Don Havel on February 6, 2024, 8:32 pm, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

I have an 1898 No. 3 with that same damascus pattern. Can anyone identify the designation given that pattern.

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No. 3 Damascus

Posted by Drew Hause on February 7, 2024, 6:11 am, in reply to "Re: No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

It could be 3 Iron Crolle or Chain. There are examples here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UYzpTlAj4tQxjifoxxwfXeS7Sc477_J4h-FCIsm9rAA/edit

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Locking thread

Posted by LCSCA on February 8, 2024, 6:18 am, in reply to "No Serial # or proof marks on Barrel Flats?"

Please start another thread if there are more questions.

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