I'm looking for information regarding the introduction of the Pigeon Gun. The 1895 catalog (pictured) is supposed to have introduced the Pigeon Gun and Nitro fluid steel barrels.

If you have a copy of the catalog and would photograph the page(s) regarding the Pigeon Gun and Nitro Steel barrels to send to me, I would greatly appreciated it.

You can send the photo via email to: g.g@@aol.com

Thank you!

Crown steel first appeared with the Pigeon Grade in 1893, No. A 1 (SN 1130) in 1894, was also used for the No. 3 about 1895, and in 1898 for the No. 2.

Nitro steel was introduced in 1898 for the No. 3 and Pigeon and later the No. 4 and No. 5.

If Fred's Pigeon gun now has Nitro steel barrels, it is very likely they were a replacement.

June 22, 1895 Sporting Life
How the L. C. Smith Gun Game to be the Staple Article It Now Is In Sportsmen's Circles - History of Its Rise and Progress.
Another grade of gun which the Hunter Arms Company placed on the market, through the effort and study of Harvey McMurchy, is the L. C. Smith “Pigeon Gun.” Ever ready to recognize the wants of the trap-shooter they brought out this last year a new grade of this celebrated gun. This grade, like the others of this company, combines the strength and durability features that made their first hammerless gun so popular. The barrels on this new gun are the new Crown steel barrels, which are made expressly to their order and are harder than Damascus; also stronger, which makes them very popular among sportsmen. The metal is extra thick at the breech and of good strength at the muzzle, being especially adapted to stand the tremendous strain of many excessive loads of Nitro powder which has proven so disastrous to guns of other makes. This pigeon gun is strictly a high grade, made at a very reasonable price. The grip is made straight regularly, but can be made half, three quarters, or full pistol grip, if so ordered. The engraving is appropriate to a gun of this character and is of neat design and finish. The price of this pigeon gun is listed at $125, and with ejector principle $150.

Hunter Arms ads in Sporting Life for 1896 & 1897 list Crown but not Nitro steel barrels

Sporting Life Feb. 26, 1898
The Hunter Arms Company, of Fulton, N. Y., makers of the L. C. Smith gun, have made a somewhat radical change in their guns recently. The following was received, which is being sent out to the trade:
Fulton, N. Y., Feb. 10. Our motto, “We lead, others follow,” is again to be brought prominently before the public. After seriously considering the demands of the shooters we have concluded to make the following changes in the L.C. Smith guns for 1898.
Our famous Crown Steel barrels will now be put on our No. 2, $80 list gun regularly, with an option on the Damascus if preferred. After years of use on our No. 3 guns, we can cheerfully say that our Crown Steel barrels are a decided success in every way. In addition to this very important change we now offer you an entirely new design in engraving on this grade. It is neat and in keeping with a gun of this description. Our policy is always to improve our product whenever and wherever we can, hence instead of reducing our price on the No. 2 gun we have greatly improved its quality, and offer our patrons a vastly superior gun at former price.
In regard to our No. 3 gun, $100 list, we come to you with something entirely new in gun barrels called Nitro steel. For months and months we have been testing these barrels to fully demonstrate to ourselves their qualities, and the result is most satisfactory. This Nitro steel comes the nearest to the Whitworth fluid steel of any gun barrel ever offered to the trade. This statement expresses fully the status of our nitro steel, and in offering these new barrels you may rest assured we do so only after being fully convinced as to their superior quality.
Both Crown and Nitro steel barrels will have our trademark stamped on them. In this mark you have our guarantee that they are genuine, and just what we represent them to be.

Thanks, Drew!

So the 1895 catalog does not introduce Nitro Steel, yes? I see that 1893 was the first production year for Pigeon guns, so I assumed the first introduction via catalog was 1895, based on the Huchins book.

Have you happened to review the 1895 catalog?

Also, the gun I examined had a snap on forend. It did seem to have less wear than the stock, and the barrels had very bright and shiny bores even after being in storage since 1976. I could see the barrels as replacements, especially if the 1895 Pigeon gun had a forend latch similar to other higher grade guns during this era.

I sure wish I could see the 1895 catalog.

I believe Bro. Houchins' got ahead of himself, but could be wrong.

Unfortunately, the shipping records in that period did not include the barrel composition so Dr. Jim can't settle the issue.
He has an image on p. 18 of his "Production Records" showing an A-1 with a 1897 or 98' price of $175; with "our New Nitro Steel barrels.

Dr Jim could confirm the date of the Pigeon Gun listing on p. 24 with "Our new Pigeon Nitro Steels..."

This image is from the 1898 catalog

I do not have an 1895 catalog, but the Pigeon barrels are referred to as new Nitro Steel in the 1897 catalog. The image on page 24 of Production Records came from the 1910 catalog. Interestingly, Hunter Arms was still referring to the Nitro Steel barrels as "new" in 1910.

Thanks Jim. I'll move the Nitro Steel introduction to 1897 (which would be compatible with the February 1898 Sporting Life statement) until someone can document the 1895 catalog.

Thank you gentlemen! I would really like to see that 1895 catalog, so my request for a photo of the appropriate pages from it still stands.

The following may add more heat than light, but I offer it for what it is worth. I have an undated Hunter Arms pocket catalog which depicts "... each of the different grades of L.C. SMITH GUNS; also a concise description of them without going into details." The catalog describes a Pigeon Gun as having "NITRO OR CROWN STEEL BARRELS." It also describes the engraving as "... having a pigeon in full flight on one lock-plate and a blue rock on the other." It is priced at $125.00, or $150.00 with automatic ejectors. Although the catalog itself is undated, the cover letter accompanying it is dated September, 1898, and the envelope is similarly postmarked. For the reasons which follow, however, I think an argument can be made that the catalog was printed earlier than 1898. The catalog depicts guns in Quality A-3 through Quality No. 0. (1) The fact that the catalog does not reference a No. 00 gun suggests that it was printed earlier than 1898. (2) The fact that the catalog does reference a No. 0 gun suggests that it could have been printed as early as 1894. (3) I understand that the "Quality" designation was dropped in the records and replaced with the simple numerical designation around 1896. The catalog uses the "Quality" designation suggesting it was printed in 1896 or earlier. I realize that this is supposition and that the print date of a catalog is not necessarily determinative of exactly when some feature actually appeared on a gun in any event. Nonetheless it does offer additional information for consideration. I will send photos to Gary and Drew for what they are worth.

Postmarked Sep. 24, 1898



Letter dated September 23, 1898



Pigeon Gun "NITRO OR CROWN STEEL BARRELS"

Thanks, Stanley! I'm looking forward to seeing the photos.

g.g2@aol.com

This does not pertain to the pigeon gun but the 1895 catalog, of which I do not own but is partially on the internet, shows the A1 and A2 grades were supplied with crown steel barrels.

The information I've been reviewing and that has been shared in part here begs the question (at least for me) as to when the blue rock first appeared on one of the lock plates of the Pigeon Gun. My understanding is that earlier guns had two birds, and later guns a pigeon and blue rock, but at what point did the change take place...was it an abrupt change, or gradual?

Well you will have to wait and see in the next issue of our Journal for the first three pigeon guns.
Ken

Excellent, Ken! I will look forward to your article and the answer.

No, I don't have a copy of the 1895 catalog and perhaps I'm making the waters more muddy: You have established that Gilbert's gun is an 1895 Pigeon and that the earliest reference to Nitro Steel is 1897. I only want to point out that the Hunters had a habit of shipping new additions to their line before publishing in catalogs. Single selective triggers come to mind as earlier shipments besides barrel steels. So I wouldn't be quick to say that the Nitro barrel on Gilbert's gun is a replacement. A case in point is that contrary to Houchin's claim that Nitro and Whitworth Steel first shipped in 1895, I have a documented 1894 A-3 with Whitworth barrels numbered to the gun. That suggests to me that even if, or when, you obtain a copy of the '95 catalog Nitro barrels may very well have shipped before 1895. As mentioned at the outset: all muddy speculation-but with some interesting possibilties.

Thanks very much, Tom.

I think this matter may indeed be muddy, as you say, when all is said and done.

I suspect that the Hunters, like others, were also willing to "extend" the newness of their offerings, resulting in things being "new" for more than one advertisement (and even one year). Without the records having barrel steel information, this matter may be hard to verify.

Still looking for information from that 1895 catalog, though.

Thank you Scott!
I took the liberty of cropping and enhancing the catalog pages

I thought I'd ask again about the 1895 catalog and whether or not it references Nitro Steel barrels as an option for their new Pigeon gun.

By chance I was reading the 2021 LCSCA Calendar (thanks to whoever creates those!) and noted that it claims that Nitro Steel barrels were available on grade 3 Smiths beginning in 1895.

Sure would like to find some more definitive information on this topic.


uploading pictures

Look above Garry, Scott Janowski posted pictures of the catolog.
Ken

Thanks so much Scott!(...and Drew, for enlarging the copy). For me this is enough information to conclude that the Nitro Steel barrels on the Pigeon gun I examined most likely had replacement barrels if it was indeed made in 1895. I guess that all the references to Crown Steel's ability to handle nitro powders got translated by some over time as Nitro Steel.

Sorry to have pushed this so much, but I think it's important to get the facts straight if at all possible.

Again, thanks so much for helping clear this matter up.