The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

LC Smith

Posted by Jon Hancock on August 20, 2021, 3:02 pm

Hello gentlemen. Can anyone help me date and grade this LC?

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Jon Hancock on August 20, 2021, 3:05 pm, in reply to "LC Smith"

Serial Number is 3204

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Mark Robson on August 20, 2021, 4:34 pm, in reply to "Re: LC Smith"

It appears to be a Pigeon grade.

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Denver Dillard on August 20, 2021, 6:32 pm, in reply to "LC Smith"

Yes, a Pigeon Gun. If it is a 20 gauge, 1911. Otherwise, only Dr. Jim can tell you the year.

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Tom Archer on August 20, 2021, 8:42 pm, in reply to "Re: LC Smith"

Yours is a very early Pigeon Grade, and the 4-digit serial number places that gun in the guns shipped with auto-ejectors block; so the ship date would likely be 1894-95. The gun is a 12-bore and the grade mark should be on the gun. Open and cock the gun, then remove the fore arm so that you can remove the barrels. Now, check the water table (flat part of the frame) and the barrel flats for a grade mark; that mark will be a stamped "PE" and will be separate from the serial number and patent date stamps. I'd strongly encourage you to order a research letter; and one of our members, Ken Descovich, is researching early Pigeon Grade Smith guns and will want to correspond with you. I also would appreciate your posting addition pics to include the fore arm and the water table and barrel flats as having those helps immensely in assisting with correct ID.

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Jon Hancock on August 21, 2021, 7:17 pm, in reply to "Re: LC Smith"

It is an ejector gun with PE stamped on the barrels. I will get more pictures and order a letter.

Harvey McMurchy and the Pigeon Gun

Posted by Drew Hause on August 22, 2021, 9:17 am, in reply to "LC Smith"

Sorry to be late to the party, and what a prize!

You will no doubt be interested in this document
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rtqfXbMHv08c0iojRUFUV5kR7jIc-7jdinPZEmI9WSc/edit

It is possible that the shipping records would document the original purchaser, who may have been a known 1890s Live Bird competitor. If so, please share the name and I'll check the Sporting Life archives for any information.

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Ken Descovich on August 22, 2021, 10:20 am, in reply to "Re: LC Smith"

That is a very fine looking pigeon gun. There will be in the winter issue of our journal an article on the very first pigeon guns made in December 1893 serial numbers 37209 thru 37218.
Ken

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Jon Hancock on August 22, 2021, 2:39 pm, in reply to "LC Smith"

Here are some pictures. Might I also add this gun has no safety.

18 picture

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Tom Archer on August 22, 2021, 3:14 pm, in reply to "Re: LC Smith"

Photos confirm that your gun does have Hunter's very early Type I auto-ejector mechanism; and as FYI, it is common for these early double guns ordered for ACTUAL use as a competition gun not to have an auto safety device. These no-safety guns were called "Live Bird" guns because such guns built during this time frame were used by competitive live pigeon shooters, and a bird accidently lost due to a safety slide being in the wrong position could cost a shooter hundreds of dollars; so the simplest way to entirely avoid that risk was to avoid ordering such a gun with an auto safety device in the first place.

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Jon Hancock on August 22, 2021, 3:52 pm, in reply to "Re: LC Smith"

Good information. Thanks for the reply.

Re: LC Smith

Posted by Jon Hancock on August 27, 2021, 11:08 pm, in reply to "LC Smith"

Gentlemen,
I have done all the research I am capable of in addition to ordering and reading the “LC Smith production Records” book. I can not seem to be able to reference this serial number. 3204 is not referencing. Any suggestions?

Serial Number

Posted by Drew Hause on August 28, 2021, 7:11 am, in reply to "Re: LC Smith"
Edited by board administrator August 28, 2021, 7:38 am

There are gaps, inconsistency and unfortunately some repetition in the Hunter Arms serial numbers. I believe Tom Archer's DOM is very close.
Please let us know what your Research Letter confirms
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=43784&module_id=245742

One of the benefits of LCSCA membership is that you may contact Dr Jim to confirm the DOM
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=43784&module_id=245825

Re: Serial Number

Posted by Tom Archer on August 28, 2021, 9:54 am, in reply to "Serial Number"

I was too lazy to pull my information when making my first speculative post, so let's revisit this production date again. Smith guns equipped with auto-ejectors first began shipping in 1892 and all early ejector guns were recorded under a separate serial number block starting at 500. At that point all auto-ejector guns were consecutively serial numbered from 500 to about 3500 when a new 4 digit serial number block was assigned to auto-ejector guns beginning at number 5000 and ending at 9000. In 1902 a final serial number block for auto-ejector guns was assigned beginning at number 200000 that continued up to about 1919.
So....according to these auto-ejector serial number blocks, your gun would have shipped in early 1899; and not 1894-95 as I speculated earlier (i.e. gun number 3210 shipped in April, 1899; an A-2 Grade). Now what is interesting with your gun is that, although records show a few Pigeon Grade guns were made and shipped as early as 1893, the Pigeon Grade itself was not cataloged until 1895; but yours could be dated to as early as 1899? It's possible that yours was an early numbered and inventoried frame that wasn't finished and shipped until long after 1899, and it's not uncommon to find such examples in the ledgers; but the only way to know for sure is to order a RESEARCH LETTER. If you do so you can confirm not only the ship date; but also the recorded Grade within the ledger entry, as at this point I'm wondering if your gun was even recorded as a PE Grade given that it's my understanding the earliest recorded examples of the Pigeon Grade gun date to 1893 (and we have documented instances of a gun being stamped one grade on the frame and the ledger entry recording a different grade). Note also that all of these earliest recorded Pigeon Grade guns were manual extractor and not auto-ejector guns, which is why they are recorded in a serial number block for extractor guns; so a very early Pigeon Grade with auto-ejectors is another unusual aspect. Clearly this gun requires more study.

Record for Serial Number 3204

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on August 28, 2021, 10:01 am, in reply to "Re: Serial Number"

The LCSCA has a strong record (including shipping destination, stock measurements, etc.) for Serial Number 3204. I suggest that you order a research letter to obtain all of the information.

https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=43784&module_id=245742

Re: Serial Number

Posted by Jon Hancoxk on August 28, 2021, 12:57 pm, in reply to "Serial Number"

I became a member. Proud to be here

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[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]