The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

LC Smith 1945-49

Posted by Fred Lima on August 18, 2021, 1:49 pm

Are the LC Smiths made during the time Marlin owned the company 1945-1950 valued equally to the guns made say 1913-1944?

Re: LC Smith 1945-49

Posted by Charlie Brooks on August 18, 2021, 8:10 pm, in reply to "LC Smith 1945-49"

Fred,I thought by now that someone would jump in with a detailed report on this.When our club was formed in 2003 the demand for L.C.Smith shotguns was much different than now.If you had an old Blue Book it made comments that the values for the Marlin guns were worth up to about 30$ less than the earlier guns.I believe that thinking has changed in recent years.Condition,condition,condition now seems to be the driving force for value with most buyers.I own and shoot the older ones as well as the later models.I like all of them.There is some differences between them,some related to qualiy of finish and wood fit.Best of luck. Charlie.

Re: LC Smith 1945-49

Posted by Fred Lima on August 19, 2021, 10:43 am, in reply to "Re: LC Smith 1945-49"

Thanks Charlie! A friend pulled out his Blue Book. It shows the value for all 1913-1950 to be the same.

Re: LC Smith 1945-49

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on August 20, 2021, 7:44 am, in reply to "Re: LC Smith 1945-49"

The most recent Blue Book (42nd Edition) indicates a 15% reduction for FWS shotguns.

Re: LC Smith 1945-49

Posted by Bill Murphy on August 21, 2021, 10:00 am, in reply to "Re: LC Smith 1945-49"

Who wrote the L.C. Smith chapter in the latest Blue Book? I remember the late forties skeet guns being offered for sale by a neighbor in the early seventies, as I recall. He had a bunch of them, one worse than the other, all of them obviously put together from mixed parts. My dad and I inspected them and couldn't find one that was worth owning. However, the price was right at $225.00 each. Maybe I should have bought them all.

Re: LC Smith 1945-49

Posted by Michael Gombola on August 26, 2021, 9:24 am, in reply to "Re: LC Smith 1945-49"

Did Marlin bevel the side plates to make them less susceptible to splits in the head?
Also, were the Marlin guns made with more modern steel that could withstand higher pressures.
I ask because, not knowing better, I have been shooting high brass shells (1 oz) exclusively in a 20 gauge since I bought it in 1992 with no ill effects so far. Maybe I was just lucky? It is my grouse gun so it doesn't get shot much.

Re: LC Smith 1945-49

Posted by Drew Hause on August 26, 2021, 10:24 am, in reply to "Re: LC Smith 1945-49"

I'm also interested if the sideplates were beveled Michael, but don't believe they were.

What Marlin did do was modify the thickness of the wood at the head of the stock
"L.C. Smith stocks have been re-designed for still greater strength, shaped to hold the frame solidly, with special attention to tight, sure mechanical action. All stocks of selected, seasoned walnut..."

Please see the "Are L.C. Smith stocks predisposed to cracks" in the Maintenance and Restoration FAQ
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=274&club_id=43784

Marlin era 20g guns of course had 2 3/4" chambers. I haven't seen a Marlin era hang tag, but Hunter Arms tags listed 2 1/4 dram 7/8 oz. shot for 20g, and that is what I'd use, unless the head of the stock has been glasbedded.

Re: LC Smith 1945-49

Posted by Jerry Andrews on August 26, 2021, 4:02 pm, in reply to "Re: LC Smith 1945-49"

I Don’t think the metal has ever been an issue it’s always been the wood in my opinion I have restocked 383 LC Smith guns in my lifetime and once the in letting is finished there is simply nothing left of the headstock The internal parts are way too large and the top lever runs from the top of the stock down through the bottom. You are doing diesel guns a huge favor to shoot RST or similar loads in them with reduced pressures the wood simply will not hold up there’s not enough of it. The guns stocked with English walnut will do much better than the American black walnut. If there is a premium paid it should be for the guns with English walnut in my opinion.

Beveled lockplates

Posted by Drew Hause on August 26, 2021, 4:37 pm, in reply to "Re: LC Smith 1945-49"

Thank you Jerry. Have you seen a Marlin era Smith with beveled lockplates?

Re: Beveled lockplates

Posted by Tom Archer on August 26, 2021, 5:00 pm, in reply to "Beveled lockplates"

Besides making the wrist of Smith stocks (which were American black walnut, a wood more prone to splitting as Jerry noted) thicker, Marlin also changed the color case hardening process from bone charcoal to the cheaper cyanide process; and further, changed the barrel bluing process from the traditional slow rust blue process to a cheaper/faster process they developed call Du-lite (or something to that effect). Marlin also stressed quantity over quality which meant that production was greatly increased during the Marlin era by spending less time on finishing a gun; a fact especially noted in the checkering quality and parts fitment on Field and Ideal Grades. If one studies the Marlin era production period, it will be noted that Marlin produced more than 50k guns during about a 5-year span; and that amount far exceeded any other production number for any five year period in the history of the Smith gun. These are the reasons Smith fanciers have long considered the Marlin era guns inferior; and therefore less valuable, than pre-Marlin era guns. As far as shooting qualities go, there are no period differences; but regardless of production era, each gun should be evaluated and priced based on its own merits.

Marlin case colors

Posted by Drew Hause on August 26, 2021, 6:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Beveled lockplates"

Tom: this is a 1947 .410 Field with righteous colors. When did the cyanide process start?

Have you ever seen beveled lockplates?

Lockplates

Posted by Gary Rennles on August 26, 2021, 7:55 pm, in reply to "Marlin case colors"

I think this print shows a 5 degree bevel on the lockplate.

http://library.centerofthewest.org/digital/collection/WRAC/id/7690/rec/11

Re: Marlin case colors

Posted by Jerry Andrewd on August 26, 2021, 8:17 pm, in reply to "Marlin case colors"

I’ve noticed some beveling on lock plates. I find the lock plates very easy to inlet them as they are. 326 of my restocks have been from blanks I’ve done two A3’s and a ton of field guns. They are all the same to inlet. Metal has no conscience. The back of the lock plate ( it’s a stop-block to keep the plate from sinking in) is cut on a pretty good taper. That keeps you from over-scribing the lock plate and having a gap. The big issue is the top lever. Cut it off, drill a hole in the frame, add a coil spring and the L.C. Smith story would be a lot different. And yes I’ve thought about converting a few to a coil spring top lever.

Re: Marlin case colors

Posted by Tom Archer on August 26, 2021, 9:28 pm, in reply to "Marlin case colors"

Tom: this is a 1947 .410 Field with righteous colors. When did the cyanide process start?

Drew - I don't have a date; but based on my Charles Jarred research the change took place very early during the Marlin era. Remember he began work there as a helper in the hardening department; and it was an accident with cyanide that left him temporarily blind. It was only after he was able to return to work that he became an apprentice in the engraving shop. As regards Marlin's hardening process, it took a while to perfect their hardening process; and early on guns were being shipped with brittle frames that were cracking with use. I failed to mention that fact earlier; but these cracked frames were the primary reason that Marlin era guns received bad press.

Re: Marlin case colors

Posted by Michael Gombola on August 27, 2021, 11:21 am, in reply to "Re: Marlin case colors"

Thanks everyone for your help. I learned not to use high brass shells in my LC Smiths a few years ago and have not used them since.
I guess I have been lucky. A gunsmith opened the chokes on my 20 gauge about 30 years ago and he might ahve glassed the inletting. I don't remember and am afraid to take off the lockplates to check.
He appeared to be knowledgeable on LC Smiths and warned about the stocks splitting at the head so he might have done the glass bedding.
The 20 gauge was about 90% when I bought it and didn't need much work. the 12 gauge Marlin era needed to be rust blued. It is likely he glass bedded that one.

Re: Marlin case colors

Posted by Bob Hamilton on August 28, 2021, 3:05 pm, in reply to "Re: Marlin case colors"

Tom - Just double checking. The 1968-71 Marlin (North Haven, CT) guns certainly appear to have cyanide case colors, but I don't recall seeing a 1945-50 Marlin (L.C. Smith Gun Company, Fulton, NY) gun with cyanide case colors.

Here is my humble Marlin 1946 Field Grade with the traditional bone and charcoal case colors. Also I believe the frame and fitting production issues were especially encountered during the 1968 reintroduction, not during the Marlin Fulton production period. That is what I have known, but I certainly could be missing something here (happens all the time

).

Fred - As far as value goes, yes I certainly like the pre-1913 graded guns the best, but they don't make any of them anymore and I would still take a 1945-50 Elsie over any junk made today. Even the Field Grades have an intrinsic value well beyond what someone pens in Blue Book.

Bob

Re: Marlin case colors

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on August 28, 2021, 3:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Marlin case colors"

I agree with Bob. I have never seen one that I thought had colors from the cyanide process.

Re: Marlin case colors

Posted by Tom Archer on August 28, 2021, 9:15 pm, in reply to "Re: Marlin case colors"

The Marlin Firearms Company purchased Hunter Arms in late November, 1945; and in December, 1945 organized the LC Smith Gun Company, Inc. as a subsidiary of The Marlin Firearms Company.
After acquisition, Marlin immediately went to work looking for production cost changes they could make in terms of cost savings time and manufacturing processes in order to lower production costs, increase production, and be able to produce the Smith profitability. I don't recall the first reference I read regarding changes in case the hardening processes; but the information I published as part of the Charles Jarred story came directly from a personal friend of Charles Jerred, Ken Sweet, and Mr. Jerred's widow and son. When Mr. Jerred began work at Hunter Arms he was assigned to the hardening department; an accident there with cyanide burned his eyes and he was temporarily blinded. The company contacted his wife (the Jerred family lived in Fulton and had no automobile); and Mrs. Jerred walked to the gunworks, took Charles by the hand and lead him home like a little child. Ken told me that Marlin had changed to the cyanide process because it was faster and cheaper; and that it took them some unknown amount of time to perfect the new hardening process, as their first efforts resulted in brittle frames. Certainly some of the early guns would have been finished and shipped from inventory on hand, and early production guns charcoal hardened as Marlin's changes were implemented; so I have no effective change date, but will continue to rely on the Jerred's and Mr. Sweet's first hand accounts. But one thing's for sure, whatever changes Marlin made were very successful, as an average of better than 13,000 Smith guns were produced annually under Marlin's tenure; and prior to Marlin, only twice had Hunter Arms production exceeded 13,000 guns in one year.

Re: Marlin case colors

Posted by Bob Hamilton on August 28, 2021, 10:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Marlin case colors"

I'm not as familiar with the Hunter box lock guns, but the Fulton may have been case hardened using the cyanide process. Could that be the missing link in this story?

If anyone out there has a 1945-50 Marlin L.C. Smith with cyanide case colors, please share.

Thanks,
Bob

Fulton gun case colors

Posted by Drew Hause on August 29, 2021, 7:18 am, in reply to "Re: Marlin case colors"

This is a 1918 tradename Fulton with bone charcoal case colors with the 1st style 3 screw frame

1927 Fulton Special with the 4th style 3 screw frame and differently sculpted frame

5th style sculpted action; 2 screws and 3 screw floorplate .410 Fulton with cyanide colors, which the Hunter Special guns (introduced in 1937) had

Re: Fulton gun case colors

Posted by Bob Hamilton on August 29, 2021, 12:11 pm, in reply to "Fulton gun case colors"

Thanks Drew,

These Hunter box lock guns are pretty neat in their own right!

The Hunter Arms/L.C. Smith learning and story never seems to end if you want keep exploring.

Thanks again!
Bob

Hunter Arms Fulton guns

Posted by Drew Hause on August 29, 2021, 12:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Fulton gun case colors"

Here's a place to start Bob
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BrDPhUeeezjPGmb0zTxdp4ic6LcmKiR-WJQiTqfS07I/edit

but we need someone to write the definitive article!

Re: Hunter Arms Fulton guns

Posted by Tom Archer on August 30, 2021, 9:19 am, in reply to "Hunter Arms Fulton guns"

This has been an interesting discussion, and in light of Drew's post above and my comments regarding case hardening based on information from the Jerred family; let me say that the information I received regarding the cyanide burn accident occurring to Charles Jerred while working in that department did not specifically reference LC Smith frame type, he could very well have been working on Fulton box lock frame or something else? Clearly Fulton frames were being hardened using cyanide; but LC frames, I'm no longer sure? In the interim we can look for examples; but I have indeed read a reference somewhere in the past stating that Marlin used the cyanide process on Smith guns, I've just gotten to old to recall the origin. Tom

Re: Hunter Arms Fulton guns

Posted by Gary Rennles on August 30, 2021, 6:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Hunter Arms Fulton guns"

I do not know if the facts in this description are correct. But this dates it as 1968 -1973

https://gunvalues.gundigest.com/smith-l-c/12097/1968-model/

Re: Hunter Arms Fulton guns

Posted by Tom Archer on August 30, 2021, 6:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Hunter Arms Fulton guns"

Marlin definitely color cased hardened with cyanide when the LC was reintroduced in 1968; Brophy was a historian there at the time and reported that fact in his book, L.C. Smith shotguns.

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