The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge

Posted by Denver Dillard on March 19, 2021, 10:16 pm
Edited by board administrator March 20, 2021, 7:33 am

Would someone with expertise tell us whether the gun previewed is legit. Serial number is 35555 but the ribs are second style and it has stepped lock plates. 35555 would be 1892. does this combination match or is there something out of sync? This A-2 is exceptional if legit.

Re: Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge

Posted by Denver Dillard on March 19, 2021, 10:27 pm, in reply to "Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge"
Edited by board administrator March 20, 2021, 7:33 am

I forgot to mention that the barrels are marked "Hunter Arms".

Re: Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge

Posted by Tom Archer on March 20, 2021, 12:49 am, in reply to "Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge"

The gun in question is certainly legit. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the term 2nd style rib, as the rib matting appears to be identical to the early Smith guns I've seen; but the stepped lock plates are a standard feature of the early First Variation Grade A-2 gun, and seems to be the feature that makes these early A-2s so desirable amongst collectors (and the fact that examples are so hard to find). This gun has seen lots of use judging by the position of the opening lever and the fact that the dogs head forearm insert is worn smooth; the forearm also has a crack that needs addressing. I can't remember if Jim's grades recap includes the
A-2 manual extractor guns, but Brophy's recap recorded only A-2 guns with auto ejectors. I've seen one other A-2 extractor gun that ultimately wound up with John Houchins and which I believe is pictured in his book LC Smith, the Legend Lives. That gun is engraved very similar to this example. The pics below are of an ungraded, but certainly very early A-2 quality gun in the 24XXX serial number range; and the engraving on this gun is outstanding.

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Re: Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge

Posted by Denver Dillard on March 20, 2021, 9:02 am, in reply to "Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge"
Edited by board administrator March 20, 2021, 10:37 am

My concern was that the successful bidder will pay a very high price, even for a gun in this use condition. I was put off by the serial number and the absence of this gun in the Houchins list on p. 530. Now, a closer exam of the example at p.129 shows that serial # to be 34896. When I referred to the ribs, I meant the frame ribs. The gun in question has barrels which appear to be on face yet they lack the fancier beach engraving and the address is on the barrels rather than the rib. Tom points out the obvious heavy use. All screws have been moved and not indexed. The buyer needs to be sure it is not an upgrade. I agree, it appears to be the real deal with, perhaps, replaced barrels. If there is a record in Book 1, many issues would be resolved.

Denver: could you please post your name as Denver Dillard? Thank you for your cooperation.

Re: Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge

Posted by Tom Archer on March 20, 2021, 10:26 am, in reply to "Re: Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge"

The few very early shipping ledger records I've seen from this period provide very little detail, so I seriously doubt there's any information there; apparently even the grade designation is missing, which would account for the fact that this gun and gun #34896 were not picked up as being A-2 guns in Jim's exhaustive records research. I know a fair amount of the history of #34896 as it previously belonged to a collector friend Hal Jacques. Hal purchased the gun many years ago from an obscure gun shop in Maine; it was in well-used and neglected condition, so he sent the gun to Buck Hamlin for restoration. Afterwards Hal placed the gun on consignment at Colonial Gun Shop in Hillsborough, NC where John Houchins discovered the gun and purchased same. The second set of barrels was added by Hunter Arms sometime after the gun originally shipped. As to the barrels on this 10-bore, I see them as original; and let us not forget that 1892 was a still a time of transition from Syracuse era features to what would eventually be considered "standard" Hunter Arms features, so differences are often found and it's these variations that make these early guns so interesting. Remember also that up until about 1898, Hunter Arms ads listed both number and quality grades. The best example of that fact is seen in the photo of the high grade Smith gun on the cover of the Houchins book. That manual extractor gun was shipped to a New Orleans shipping magnate in either 1895 or '96 (not sure off the top of the head?), and I've seen the original invoice for same in which Hunter Arms recorded this gun as a "Quality 7, Extra Gold". Remember the A-3 was first cataloged in 1895, whereas the Quality 7 was allegedly replaced by the introduction of the A-2. We've no actual idea how many A-2 guns were ordered and shipped with manual extractors because we find none in the shipping ledgers, but there were likely more shipped than these two examples; and for whatever it's worth, there were more A-2 guns produced than the 213 recorded examples as I've personally examined two A-2's recorded in the shipping ledgers as Pigeon Grades. As to why this is so I have only speculation, but both were original Hunter guns with all the correct factory grade stamps and indicators. I've said many times, and this is a perfect illustration, that the variations we see in these early Smith guns are the reasons they are the most interesting to collectors.

XXX Gun

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on March 20, 2021, 1:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Poulin's A-2 10 Gauge"

For whatever it is worth, Serial Number 34896 was recorded as an XXX gun.

Re: XXX Gun

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on March 20, 2021, 3:10 pm, in reply to "Re: XXX Gun"

Serial Number 35555 was also recorded as an XXX.

Re: XXX Gun

Posted by Craig Larter on March 20, 2021, 5:33 pm, in reply to "Re: XXX Gun"
Edited by board administrator March 20, 2021, 7:27 pm

Boy the Poulin gun looks correct to my eye, I'm a 10 gauge lover and would sure be happy to have that gun in my collection. I wish my checkbook was big enough!! Any guess on the hammer price??

Re: Jim Stubbendieck - XXX Gun

Posted by Tom Archer on March 20, 2021, 10:03 pm, in reply to "Re: XXX Gun"

Jim, please refresh mine and our member's memories; did you tell me that the letters "XXX" in the grades column denoted a "gun made to a different grade"? Please advise and thanks
Tom

XXX Gun

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on March 21, 2021, 8:37 am, in reply to "Re: Jim Stubbendieck - XXX Gun"

Tom:

Below is a scan of one of the first pages of Ledger 1 which starts with the initial production (Serial Number 30000) of the Hunter Arms Company in 1890.

XXX left without grade
made into different " (grade)

geojson multipolygon example

Serial Number 355555 Record

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on March 21, 2021, 8:49 am, in reply to "XXX Gun"

Re: Serial Number 355555 Record

Posted by Tom Archer on March 21, 2021, 9:42 am, in reply to "Serial Number 355555 Record"

Thanks Jim for the clarification; I knew I was close. So clearly a Smith gun denoted "XXX" within the ledgers was either left ungraded or was made into a different grade. So the next question is do you think the "XXX" stamps on the bottoms of the barrel tubes of these early guns is meant to correspond to the "XXX" designation in the ledgers since some examples are clearly graded and others are not? One will also find "XX" barrel tube stamps on these early graded and ungraded guns, and I think those "XX" designations are also found in the ledgers; please shed some light towards understanding those marks also. Thanks, Tom

XX and XXX Guns

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on March 21, 2021, 10:25 am, in reply to "Re: Serial Number 355555 Record"

Tom:

I've seen so few XX and XXX guns that I am not qualified to answer your questions. I am sure that others will be able to provide answers or at least speculate about the answers.

Here is a little more information on production of XX and XXX guns from the Hunter Arms Company Records:

1890 112 XX and 64 XXX
1891 17 XX and 25 XXX
1892 4 XX and 7 XXX
1893 1 XX and 1 XXX
1894 3 XX and no XXX
none from 1895 onward

It appears that their record keeping improved with time.

Re: XX and XXX Guns

Posted by Tom Archer on March 21, 2021, 11:51 am, in reply to "XX and XXX Guns"

Jim
This seems to be an area for research opportunities; and maybe a start would be making a list of guns found with the "XX" and "XXX" barrel stamps? In the past I haven't written down the serial numbers of the guns I seen with these stamps, but a good start might be this gun, SN 30041, which would be 1890 production and features the "XXX" barrel tube stamps, and is also stamped as a Grade or Quality 3. Is this gun recorded as a Quality 3 or "XXX" gun in the ledgers?

Re: XX and XXX Guns

Posted by Tom Archer on March 21, 2021, 12:42 pm, in reply to "Re: XX and XXX Guns"

While awaiting Jim's response, and for the sake of conversation I looked thru some old photo files and found the following on "XX" and "XXX" barrel stamps; but first let me preface this information by stating that, although the Fulton, NY records we have begin at 30000, we have recorded Smith guns marked Hunter Arms Co, Fulton, NY with much lower serial numbers.
The earliest I've personally recorded is #19932, Grade stamped "4" and both tubes stamped "XX".
The next is #23475, not marked as to Grade but A-2 Quality engraving, and both tubes stamped "XXX". The next example is #30347, the Smith gun pictured on the cover of the Houchins book. This gun is also not marked as to grade, but was a special order and is described on the original sales invoice as a "Quality 7, Extra Gold". Both barrels feature the "XXX" barrel stamps in gold inlay.
Interestingly, the last example I've recorded is #20330. This gun is a Quality 5 with a SYRACUSE, NY address. Both barrel tubes feature "XXX" stamps, with one tube having those stamps in gold inlay to include the Belgium "Crown" trademark. Another interesting aspect of this gun is that it has two extra barrel sets and fore arms; both done by Hunter Arms and each can be dated by the fore arm inlays to different production periods. One of those extra barrel sets also features the "XXX" tube stamps but not in gold inlay. It's "trivial" features and differences such as these that make the study of the very early Smith gun so intriguing.

Re: XX and XXX Guns

Posted by Ken Descovich on March 21, 2021, 12:46 pm, in reply to "Re: XX and XXX Guns"

I own a 10 gauge serial number 37281 that has XX on the barrels that was the only markings to signify what model it is. I contacted Jim and he said the books say it is a quality 1.

Re: XX and XXX Guns

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on March 21, 2021, 1:30 pm, in reply to "Re: XX and XXX Guns"

With two exceptions (SN 30035 and SN 30054) all of the shotguns from SN 30034 to SN 30105 were recorded as XXX or XX shotguns. Do these guns fit into the category of those that "Left without grade..."? In other words, did the workers simply forget to record the grades before the shotguns were shipped?

B Grade XXX

Posted by Jerry Andrews on March 23, 2021, 7:09 am, in reply to "Re: XX and XXX Guns"

My B Grade has XXX on it. I’ve still never seen or heard of another B Grade hammer gun. If someone has one I’d love to see the checkering pattern on the forend. Mine also has the most unique ebony finial inlaid into the forend. Jerry

Re: B Grade XXX

Posted by Tom Archer on March 23, 2021, 1:56 pm, in reply to " B Grade XXX"

Several years ago the LCSCA display theme for the Challenge Event was Syracuse Hammer and Hammerless guns. Some interesting guns were displayed and one was a Syracuse B Grade Hammer gun; don't remember who had the gun (might have been yours?) or much else about the gun other than it was a B Grade. We also had an 8-bore Syracuse hammer gun there; seriously doubt if there are many of those around either.

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