The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

Desparate Need For Help

Posted by Roy Todd on November 9, 2020, 5:36 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I’m in desperate need of help, please.

I went on a pheasant hunt last week, and I carried my Elsie to which I put to very good use on several birds.

But.

After about an hour of hunting and on the approximate 10th shot of the day, a pheasant flew up, and I shot. My whole world became surreal because my left barrel exploded, split open and is bent outward. There is about an 8 inch split in the barrel, and the sight ramp leading to the front sight split as well. Also, there is another strip of steel below the barrels, and it was blown downward into a U shape. The whole barrel assembly is ruined. I can send pictures if you want to see. There is nothing to report regarding the ammo I was using—just some standard Winchester store bought rounds.

What gun is this? In early 2019 I was asked to submit a story to LCSCA telling the history of this very, very cherish part of our family. Specifically, Serial Number is 354331 which is a 12 gauge Trap Grade, SxS with 30” barrels. This is the very same gun recounted in the story published in the Summer, 2019 edition of The Journal of the L. C. Smith Collectors Association which begins on page 26 and is entitled ‘The Unexpected Journeys of the Todd L. C. Smith Shotgun. As the last sentence of the article states, ‘The gun is precious to me.’

I am heartbroken.

How, where can I purchase a replacement barrel assembly? Please tell me some good news.

I can be reached at 214-577-7625 and bigtuna55@verizon.net.

Thank you for any and all help.

Roy Todd

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by Carl Erickson on November 9, 2020, 6:38 pm, in reply to "Desparate Need For Help"

Start looking on Ebay. I have found several barrels on auction there. GOOD LUCK!!!!!

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by David Williamson on November 10, 2020, 5:50 am, in reply to "Desparate Need For Help"

Roy glad to hear that you were not harmed. There has to be an explanation as to why the barrel ruptured. The pressure down near the muzzle is very low and I believe there had to be an obstruction for this to happen.

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Barrel Burst Analysis

Posted by Drew Hause on November 10, 2020, 6:48 am, in reply to "Desparate Need For Help"

Very disappointing Roy.
We need to know if you are seeking ejector or extractor barrels, and on a regular or FW frame.

I have evaluated a bunch of barrel bursts, and would very much like to analyze your barrel remains
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZnptAPvQIlWG5n5UU2FmKcFpYtVmOSc4b7K7G9IBs4g/edit

and would especially like to cut a section of the Crown Steel for composition analysis, at my expense.

I've sent you an email.

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by Roy Todd on November 10, 2020, 4:05 pm, in reply to "Desparate Need For Help"

Update:

Thank you very much to those who have reached out to me. Instead of replying to individual emails, I'll try to answer all the questions here so everyone can read:

1. Ammo used was Winchester-Western Super X, 2 3/4", 1 1/4 oz, 7 1/2 shot.

2. No chance of mud, etc. entering the barrel. One person in our hunting group hypothesized that perhaps the wad from the previous shot had not exited; however, there was nothing unusual about the previous shot to make me think that could have been the case.

3. What's interesting in the split is that it looks like the barrel is not a solid piece of bar stock that has been drilled, but rather a very long, narrow rectangle of steel that was rolled together to form a tube (barrel). The split in the barrel appears to follow a seam where the steel was folded over and connected to form the barrel. In other words, the split does not look like the steel was 'torn', but rather follows a seam. The reason I point this out is that if this believe is true, I wonder if the barrel could be repaired--see next point below.

4. I was nosing around the internet yesterday, and I stumble across a website for a company in Memphis that purports to be able to fix/repair barrels. The name of the company is gunlistings.org. Does anyone know anything about this company, or is there another company who might be able to help?

Thank you to everyone who has reached out to me.

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by Carl Erickson on November 10, 2020, 5:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Desparate Need For Help"

Possibly you plugged the barrel with dirt or debris. Let Dr Drew examine it. He can probably give a cause of the burst and help other shooters by his analysis.
There is probably an orphan barrel set you can use available. I would not try a repair.

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by stanley hackett on November 10, 2020, 7:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Desparate Need For Help"

Your paragraph 3 sounds like you might describing twist or damascus steel barrels. Are they?

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by Roy Todd on November 10, 2020, 7:57 pm, in reply to "Re: Desparate Need For Help"

No, no debris or dirt.

No, not Damascus.

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by Daniel R. Simmons on November 10, 2020, 9:02 pm, in reply to "Re: Desparate Need For Help"

Sounds like a perfect candidate for a professionally done barrel sleeving job. I have heard of strength issues with these, but with standard loads I would suspect they are safe enough.

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the base wad most likely followed the shot down the barrel

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on November 11, 2020, 10:44 am, in reply to "Re: Desparate Need For Help"

Hello Roy Todd, Most likely the base wad inside the shotgun hull from the previous shot followed the shot down the barrel about half way and stopped there...... the next shot fired through that barrel blew the barrel...... we have seen this before...... I have personally experienced this malfunction BUT I happened to notice that the smoke in the barrel was different when I opened the gun so I looked and I could see a little light through the barrel but it was not right so I looked again and sure enough the base wad was stuck in the barrel..... I have a theory about how this can happen but it is a long winded theory so I will skip it for now...... Yes, you can find good used LCS barrels to be fitted to your LCS..... I might even have a set of barrels that might fit..... it is all try try and try again until you find a set that will fit...... posted by Jent on Nov 11 of 2020.

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Does the W-W Super-X load have a separate base wad?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 11, 2020, 12:34 pm, in reply to "the base wad most likely followed the shot down the barrel"

Roy: please check any left-over empties - you may need to cut the hull to confirm that there is a separate base wad.

We established that Roy is seeking a Crown steel Regular frame non-ejector barrel. Fortunately, his forend (which I assume to be a J-spring snap-on and NOT a Curtis push-rod) was not damaged in the burst.

Is it possibly that the barrels have been caustic salt blued?

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Re: Does the W-W Super-X load have a separate base wad?

Posted by David Williamson on November 11, 2020, 12:58 pm, in reply to "Does the W-W Super-X load have a separate base wad?"

After I believe 1918 all grades without ejectors except the field grade had the roller release and some still had the Curtis release.

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Re: Does the W-W Super-X load have a separate base wad?

Posted by Drew Hause on November 11, 2020, 3:14 pm, in reply to "Does the W-W Super-X load have a separate base wad?"

Super-X and AA CF hulls with separate base wads

AA and Universal

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Image Hosting by PictureTrail.com

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the old original AA was a one piece hull

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on November 11, 2020, 6:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Does the W-W Super-X load have a separate base wad?"

Hello Doctor Drew, I am sure that you know that the original AA hull was a one piece compression formed hull...... the original AA one piece hull has been out of production for 15 or more years, maybe 20 years????.... I will have to see if I have an old Super X hull around here and see how it is built..... the new AA HS is a 3 part hull with a separate base wad...... Jent.

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do you have one of these hulls still ???

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on November 11, 2020, 6:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Desparate Need For Help"

Ammo used was Winchester-Western Super X, 2 3/4", 1 1/4 oz, 7 1/2 shot....... Do you still have one of these shells or empty hulls that came from the exact same box of shells that blew up this gun ???..... posted by Jent.

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Re: do you have one of these hulls still ???

Posted by Charlie Brooks on November 11, 2020, 8:57 pm, in reply to "do you have one of these hulls still ???"

The first and easiest thing would be is have some of these shells tested for pressure.Many of these modern shells are way over specs.I have a Win. 37A that we use on the farm for unwanted critters that blew a couple years back using heavy factory lead loads.There was no blockage of any kind in this gun.Good luck! Charlie.

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by David Williamson on November 12, 2020, 7:58 am, in reply to "Desparate Need For Help"

Todd, I remember your article in the Journal almost like finding that "needle in the haystack".

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Re: do you have one of these hulls still ???

Posted by Roy Todd on November 12, 2020, 8:45 am, in reply to "do you have one of these hulls still ???"

Yes. I cut a shell open this morning. There are 3 wads in the shell:

1. Very thin cupped cardboard wad that is adjacent to the powder.

2. Very dense cardboard wad about 1/3" thick.

3. And butting up to the shot is another very dense cardboard wad 1/3" thick.

Later today I'll get my daughter to help me upload the pic I took.

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The Super-X wads

Posted by Drew Hause on November 12, 2020, 10:05 am, in reply to "Re: do you have one of these hulls still ???"

Are these new production Super-X shells?
I agree it is likely the base wad stuck in the choke, causing a obstructional "ring bulge", which usually lifts the ribs. Odd to totally separate the barrel tubes unless the barrels had been caustic salt blued some time in the past.

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Re: The Super-X wads

Posted by Roy Todd on November 12, 2020, 10:19 am, in reply to "The Super-X wads"

Not new shells, probably 15 years old.

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Re: The Super-X wads

Posted by Charlie Brooks on November 12, 2020, 1:16 pm, in reply to "Re: The Super-X wads"

If that is the type wads in your shells,they could be much older.It is possible that the powder itself may have caused the problem if it was old.

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factory shotgun shells with that type of wad are very old

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on November 12, 2020, 7:13 pm, in reply to "Re: The Super-X wads"

Hello Roy Todd, Can you post a picture of one of these shotgun shells ???? Can you post a picture of the box that these old shotgun shells were in ??? I am with Pastor Charlie, these wads came from a very very old shotgun shell..... Can you post a few pictures of the blown up barrel ???..... Thank You, Jent

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Re: Desparate Need For Help

Posted by Angelo Foglietta on November 20, 2020, 11:28 am, in reply to "Desparate Need For Help"

Just read this story. Very unfortunate situation. Just a suggestion here but shouldn’t we all just use RST low pressure shells in these vintage guns? That’s all I use or ever will use with these fine old guns.

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Shells for vintage doubles

Posted by Drew Hause on November 20, 2020, 3:14 pm, in reply to "Re: Desparate Need For Help"

Please see the "Shotshells and Shooting" section in the FAQs Angelo
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=274&club_id=43784

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Re: Shells for vintage doubles

Posted by Angelo Foglietta on November 21, 2020, 11:56 am, in reply to "Shells for vintage doubles"

How do I get to the FAQ section of the forum ?
Thank you

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Re: Shells for vintage doubles

Posted by Tom Garver on November 21, 2020, 3:42 pm, in reply to "Re: Shells for vintage doubles"

Angelo, if you are in the mobile mode just click on FAQ's. If you are in desktop mode click on the 3 horizontal lines on the bottom left of your screen where it says Menu. When the next screen pops up click on FAQ.

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Closing this long thread

Posted by Jim Stubbendieck on November 21, 2020, 4:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Shells for vintage doubles"

Closing this long thread. Please feel free to start another thread on the same subject.

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