The L.C. Smith Collectors Association

The L.C. Smith Collectors Association
[ The L.C. Smith Collectors Association ]

skeleton buttplates

Posted by Bryan Emch on May 10, 2020, 7:22 pm

how common were skeleton buttplates on Elsies and what is the lowest grade seen?

LCS factory installed skeleton buttplates

Posted by Jent P Mitchell III on May 11, 2020, 8:37 am, in reply to "skeleton buttplates"

Factory installed skeleton butt plates on LCS SXS shotguns did happen but they are rare in my opinion. I have seen a few, very few, pictures of true factory installed LCS SXS skeleton butt plates. I believe I did see in person a factory installed LCS skeleton butt plate at The Southern SXS Shoot a few years ago...... posted by Jent on May 11 of 2020.

Re: LCS factory installed skeleton buttplates

Posted by Drew Hause on May 11, 2020, 10:05 am, in reply to "LCS factory installed skeleton buttplates"

1902 Monogram Skeleton Buttplate courtesy of Mike Harris.
Surviving Parker Bros. records include orders from Hunter Arms for single skeleton buttplates for $.75 minus a 15% discount for a net charge of $.64.

Courtesy of Tom Archer

Posted by Drew Hause on May 11, 2020, 10:07 am, in reply to "Re: LCS factory installed skeleton buttplates"
Edited by board administrator May 11, 2020, 10:08 am

The Skeleton Butt was an option available on virtually all grades of the Smith gun on customer request throughout the lifetime of the gun works. A cost schedule from the Hunter Arms engraving department dated 9/19/41 and prepared by Albert Kraus breaks the engraving cost into two categories; OLD Style and NEW style.
The Old Style listed skeleton butts as available in Grades 1 thru A-4 at a cost of 15 cents for the Grade 1 up to $8 for the A-4 Grade (the A-3 was $3).
The New style covered the Ideal Grade thru the Deluxe Grade with engraving shop costs for the Ideal at 15 cents and the Deluxe at $8. These quotes clearly represent the engraving shop costs only; this was not the price the company charged the customer for this option.

Re: LCS factory installed skeleton buttplates

Posted by Tom Archer on May 11, 2020, 10:09 am, in reply to "LCS factory installed skeleton buttplates"

Factory installed skeleton butts on Smith guns are very uncommon; but were always an option on special order in spite of the fact that I haven't noted any period catalog references. The lowest grade gun with such plate I'm aware of is an early 1890's vintage quality 2 gun. A PGCA member has reported seeing orders from Hunter Arms for skeleton butt plates in the Parker records, so maybe Parker was the source for a Smith gun skeleton butt when special ordered? I have a copy of a 1941 engraving cost schedule created by Albert Kraus and in that schedule is noted the shop cost of engraving skeleton butts in all grades; both pre and post 1913 models. At any rate, an original LC Smith with a factory skeleton butt is a great find.

Re: Courtesy of Tom Archer

Posted by Tom Archer on May 11, 2020, 10:12 am, in reply to "Courtesy of Tom Archer"

Thanks Drew, obviously we were responding simultaneously. Have a great day
Tom

Re: skeleton buttplates

Posted by Bryan Emch on May 12, 2020, 7:47 pm, in reply to "skeleton buttplates"

thanks for the knowledge and info. gun in question was a grade 3 extractor 12 which I believe has an original skeleton buttplate. thanks again for the responses. I will try to post a photo.

Re: skeleton buttplates

Posted by Garry Gordon on May 15, 2020, 6:24 pm, in reply to "skeleton buttplates"

Are there hints to identifying originality in the factory skeleton buttplates? I have an early grade 4 with one. The Smith collector I bought it from believed it to be original. Unfortunately, there are no records for the gun.

Re: skeleton buttplates

Posted by Bryan Emch on May 16, 2020, 7:27 am, in reply to "Re: skeleton buttplates"

Research letter states that skeleton buttplates were never recorded in the ledgers so I would say to myself, does it look right? Fit and finish, length of pull and wear.

Re: skeleton buttplates

Posted by Bryan Emch on June 7, 2020, 8:04 pm, in reply to "Re: skeleton buttplates"

here are some pictures of the grade 3

[img]https:/https://imgur.com/nyVGdam[/img][img]http:/https://imgur.com/xUiqomn[/img][img]http:/https://imgur.com/NTK94cv[/img][img]http:/https://imgur.com/SyvSdqm[/img][img]http:/https://imgur.com/HJ8AFf5[/img]

Re: skeleton buttplates

Posted by Tom Archer on June 8, 2020, 10:31 am, in reply to "Re: skeleton buttplates"

That is about the only way short of a factory letter "does it look right"? I would also carefully inspect the butt for plugged butt plate screw holes that have been checkered over. You may also want to make sure the butt stock is original to the gun; things such as precise inletting, accurate checkering, and the factory number and grade stamps under the trigger guard strap. If everything else looks "right" then the skeleton butt is most likely correct to the gun.

Re: skeleton buttplates

Posted by Bryan Emch on June 8, 2020, 5:08 pm, in reply to "Re: skeleton buttplates"

thanks for the responses, Dr. Jim states in my letter that skeletons were never recorded in the records. My wife thought she had the pics figured out but I guess not- pics on this site are difficult.

Re: skeleton buttplates

Posted by Bill Murphy on June 11, 2020, 1:09 pm, in reply to "Re: skeleton buttplates"

It is hard for me to believe that LCS bought skeleton buttplates from Parker Brothers and never installed them on guns. You have to disassemble the buttplate and examine the workmanship to determine whether any buttplate is original.

Re: skeleton buttplates

Posted by Tom Archer on June 11, 2020, 8:43 pm, in reply to "Re: skeleton buttplates"

If we still had gun order records we'd know exactly how each gun was built; but all that survive are shipping records, which unfortunately do not contain such detailed information. That said, we do have factory documentation verifying that skeleton butt plates were an option, and the examples I've seen look suspiciously like Parker skeleton butts.

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